What is rich?
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11-02-2012, 10:12 AM
What is rich?
How do you determine wealth or What is rich? To me anyone making 70K a year is rich to me. It's more than 3 times the money I get a year. But if I lived in NY or California I would be poorer than a church mouse. Even 70K is just scraping by in them states. It's relative to where you live. But lets say over 1 million a year is that rich as hell??? I think so.
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11-02-2012, 10:23 AM
RE: What is rich?
(11-02-2012 10:12 AM)N.E.OhioAtheist Wrote:  How do you determine wealth or What is rich?

Excellent thread, N.E.A. -- and it is closely related to an old thread of mine called: "Needs versus Wants".

I resurrected it for further consideration.

Smile
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11-02-2012, 10:55 AM (This post was last modified: 11-02-2012 10:58 AM by Thomas.)
RE: What is rich?
(11-02-2012 10:12 AM)N.E.OhioAtheist Wrote:  How do you determine wealth or What is rich? To me anyone making 70K a year is rich to me. It's more than 3 times the money I get a year. But if I lived in NY or California I would be poorer than a church mouse. Even 70K is just scraping by in them states. It's relative to where you live. But lets say over 1 million a year is that rich as hell??? I think so.

The $70K number you put up is quite accurate. Psychologists have determined that this level of income in the US gets people to a level of consumption where additional consumption is extremely diminished. In essence, they are not happier with more income. However, they believe that they will be. The fallacy of scarcity. What we think is that humans are forward enough thinking animals that we can imagine a future where we may not have what we need for survival, so we have a natural tendency to hoard.

Take for example Harvard University. They have 27 billion in their endowment fund. What almost all colleges do is they take their endowment contributions and save half and spend half, then do the same with the interest earned on the base. What college needs 27 billion in cash reserves? Harvard, a school full of liberals and many socialists, is hoarding massive amounts of cash out of fear of future scarcity, or at least that may be a reason for their behavoir.

I have a thought experiment for you. I imagine that there is a 12oz can of substance that you need to drink every day to survive. You cannot miss a single day or you will die. You are motivated to store up the cans of life so that if you fall on hard times you will not die. Depending on your imagined risk you will save up more than you will ever need in your lifetime for a safety margin. You have been very successful in life and you have stored up a massive warehouse of cans of life, 20 times more than you would actually need. A charity comes to you and wants you to give up some of the cans because there are real people dying of starvation. How much do you give up? If you’re Bill Gates, 10 billion, but you keep 35 billion. Still many times more than you need. If you’re Harvard University you give up how much of your 27 billion cans of life?

Now change the situation. You still need the same 12oz of nutrition to survive every day, but there is a faucet in your house that delivers the juice and you can drink all you want. You have no fear of it ever running out and you have never heard of such a problem of starvation. How much would you pour off into containers for your personal storage? If you never experienced scarcity the answer is none. Why do that? I would just have to store it somewhere and that would be of no benefit. The Faucet always delivers.

The problem is that human evolution involves scarcity as a prime motivator. We are conditioned to hoard wealth, even the fine liberals of Harvard University. Before we can have equity in consumption we have to first end scarcity and evolve past the mindset that it has caused in human nature.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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11-02-2012, 11:02 AM
RE: What is rich?
Rich is simply having more money than you can think of things to spend it on.
Or rich is having so much money that the idea of wearing a suit of armor while riding a giraffe down the middle of a busy street swinging a bag of live chickens above your head screaming walllabalooo I'm better than you, seems like a reasonable way to spend a Saturday.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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11-02-2012, 11:08 AM (This post was last modified: 11-02-2012 11:54 AM by Zat.)
RE: What is rich?
(11-02-2012 10:55 AM)Thomas Wrote:  The problem is that human evolution involves scarcity as a prime motivator. We are conditioned to hoard wealth, even the fine liberals of Harvard University. Before we can have equity in consumption we have to first end scarcity and evolve past the mindset that it has caused in human nature.

Once Michael Moore, in an interview with a US billionaire (I forgot his name) asked him:

"Would it be OK to be half a billionaire"?

To which the indignant reply was: "Are you kidding, I have only 8 billion, so and so has 16 and someone else has 22"

The problem is that, even though we are way past the point where everybody's needs could be adequately provided by the current level of science and technology, we still have a large number of people for whom NOTHING IS ENOUGH! Angry

It is called greed: an affliction which is both incurable and insatiable.
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11-02-2012, 11:10 AM
RE: What is rich?
I guess it all boils down to greed. The Uber rich will never be happy. It's the wealth that their looking to get and more is never enough. It's a sickness like a disease or a thrust that will never be quenched. It's passed along to the few unlucky enough to fall into its spell. It becomes unthinkable to give your share of the wealth. Then you become a commie or the unthinkable a SOCIALIST !! Never in this country! Pay more in taxes or go under regulation. Why that just goes against the so called free market. That market free for the fortunate but the poor and disabled it is a prison. Their is nothing free in the free market. You pay for everything one way or another. Mine is my health and choices on what pills I can buy this month. BUT GOD SAVE THE FREE MARKET!!! I guess I seen both sides of this issue. My brother is on the other side. He makes 7 figures a year. He does nothing for any of his family including his mother. The greed and want for more has got in him and he hordes every penny. He was a liberal TILL he started making allot of money. Then he wanted to keep everything. Now he is sick and his kidney is going bad. I have the perfect match for him but I will not cross the street for him. He has seen me without food in my house and told my mother things are tuff for me and let me go without. My farmer friends helped me and I got through it. Let him buy a kidney.
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11-02-2012, 11:26 AM (This post was last modified: 11-02-2012 11:31 AM by Thomas.)
RE: What is rich?
(11-02-2012 11:10 AM)N.E.OhioAtheist Wrote:  I guess it all boils down to greed. The Uber rich will never be happy. It's the wealth that their looking to get and more is never enough. It's a sickness like a disease or a thrust that will never be quenched. It's passed along to the few unlucky enough to fall into its spell. It becomes unthinkable to give your share of the wealth. Then you become a commie or the unthinkable a SOCIALIST !! Never in this country! Pay more in taxes or go under regulation. Why that just goes against the so called free market. That market free for the fortunate but the poor and disabled it is a prison. Their is nothing free in the free market. You pay for everything one way or another. Mine is my health and choices on what pills I can buy this month. BUT GOD SAVE THE FREE MARKET!!! I guess I seen both sides of this issue. My brother is on the other side. He makes 7 figures a year. He does nothing for any of his family including his mother. The greed and want for more has got in him and he hordes every penny. He was a liberal TILL he started making allot of money. Then he wanted to keep everything. Now he is sick and his kidney is going bad. I have the perfect match for him but I will not cross the street for him. He has seen me without food in my house and told my mother things are tuff for me and let me go without. My farmer friends helped me and I got through it. Let him buy a kidney.
I believe your brother falls under the scarcity fear as I mentioned earlier. Don't hate the guy for reacting to his fear. As I read your post it appears that he started out poor? There you have it. Maybe he feels that no one helped him when he needed it, so screw everybody else. This is the cycle we are in. Blaming the free market is not the answer, it's much deeper than that.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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11-02-2012, 11:37 AM
RE: What is rich?
[/quote]
I believe your brother falls under the scarcity fear as I mentioned earlier. Don't hate the guy for reacting to his fear. As I read your post it appears that he started out poor? There you have it. Maybe he feels that no one helped him when he needed it, so screw everybody else. This is the cycle we are in. Blaming the free market is not the answer, it's much deeper then that.
[/quote]

The free market has never been free for me. I have never been close to being wealthy. I have worked my ass off till I am a total mess. I worked 7 days a week 12-14 hrs a day for 7 years without a break. No holidays, no vacations, and sometimes I worked 48 hrs strait and slept 8 and back in for 12 more. My back is a total mess. I don't have a disc left in the bottom half of my back. I did it to feed my family and when i got sick the City fought me like i was stealing their babies from their homes. That's your free market. After my surgery the city kicked me to the curb and forced me to retire disabled.
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11-02-2012, 12:01 PM
RE: What is rich?
These posts are perfect reflections of what is happening in society today.

From the left political perspective people are mostly bad. People are selfish, greedy, closed minded, racist, etc. We need more government and less freedom. Socialism is the answer to making things fair. People are liberal when they are poor, then conservative then they have money. Human nature is all bad, it's just a matter of where you are on the economic ladder.

From the right political perspective people are mostly good. People are charitable, kind, giving, honest, etc. We need less government and more freedom. Free markets allow people to better themselves, etc.

The right sees a crook as the exception, the left see them as the rule.

These two groups see the world completely different. What is happening now is that both groups have demonized each other. Now anything goes. We hear these comments all the time: Those are your facts. Government is evil. Your unethical (not your argument for an action is unethical). Your closed minded. An open mind is an empty mind. You can't think outside the box that you're invested in. I'm the only one here who has the truth. Look at my list of obscure facts and conspiracy theories. They're true, yours conspiracy theories are not. Bla, Bla, fucking Bla. Did I miss any?

I ask one philosophical questions. Which position do you choose?
1. I would rather believe that people are mostly good and be wrong.
2. I would rather believe that people are mostly bad and be right.

The truth is you don't know if people are mostly good or mostly bad and these terms themselves are subjective. So you build the world around you that you project. Which world do you choose to be a part of?

How about a 3rd choice:
3. I believe that people are mostly bad and I am right.

See a professional if you choose number 3. You have some issues to work out.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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11-02-2012, 06:58 PM (This post was last modified: 11-02-2012 07:15 PM by Zat.)
RE: What is rich?
In addition to asking "What is Rich?", there is a very important question to ask:

"How did they get that way?"

What were the conditions from the moment of his birth?

If he had above average advantages from his parents, how did his parents acquire their wealth?

How did the existing political and economic system contribute?

Were they actively manipulating the existing system to their advantage?

Were any of their ancestors?

What did they actually give back to society in measurable benefit for the wealth they acquired?

Were they great inventors, doctors, engineers, teachers, farmers, builders, people who actually produce things for the rest of us?

Or they did it by speculation, in real estate, in currency, in war bonds?

If they were industrialists, did they get rich by ripping off their workers, by neglecting safety in the workplace, by polluting the environment, by cheating their customers, by pulling strings to destroy their superior competitors, by establishing a monopoly, by patenting someone else's invention?

You need answers to ALL of these questions before you can tell if a rich person is rich by merit or rich by fraud?

Huh
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