What is slut shaming?
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26-03-2015, 01:43 PM
RE: What is slut shaming?
(26-03-2015 07:31 AM)morondog Wrote:  So I reread this thread and it makes me rage.

This fuck came here and posed as a confused, shy girl asking questions... got some sincere, well-thought out answers... but it turns out he's this fucking mysogynistic asswipe.

WHAT THE FUCK? God. What a fucking twerp.

I mean we can still talk about slut shaming, because I still don't get why girls sleep with multiple people and are called sluts, and guys tend to get away with it.

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26-03-2015, 06:15 PM
RE: What is slut shaming?
(26-03-2015 01:43 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(26-03-2015 07:31 AM)morondog Wrote:  So I reread this thread and it makes me rage.

This fuck came here and posed as a confused, shy girl asking questions... got some sincere, well-thought out answers... but it turns out he's this fucking mysogynistic asswipe.

WHAT THE FUCK? God. What a fucking twerp.

I mean we can still talk about slut shaming, because I still don't get why girls sleep with multiple people and are called sluts, and guys tend to get away with it.

I see it as misogyny at work. Male-dominated societies devalue women that have had many partners. It's born of a social structure where women are property of men, and a woman who has slept with another man has been sullied. Men are supposed to stay true to their wife- who is supposed to be their only partner. But since the woman was his property (often throughout history literally traded/bought/won/sold/etc. as property from the father to the new husband), she had little power to do anything about it and it has largely been overlooked with a wink and a nod.

What we have today is the remnants of those sorts of systems. Religious conservatives still push for that sort of mentality and behavior to a point even today.
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27-03-2015, 05:08 AM
RE: What is slut shaming?
(26-03-2015 01:43 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  I mean we can still talk about slut shaming, because I still don't get why girls sleep with multiple people and are called sluts, and guys tend to get away with it.

Luckily not all people agree with that train of thoughts.

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27-03-2015, 09:39 AM
RE: What is slut shaming?
(26-03-2015 07:31 AM)morondog Wrote:  So I reread this thread and it makes me rage.
This fuck came here and posed as a confused, shy girl asking questions... got some sincere, well-thought out answers... but it turns out he's this fucking mysogynistic asswipe.
WHAT THE FUCK? God. What a fucking twerp.

There are times in a public forum when as much as I may suspect deception on behalf of a questioner I'm happy to give my response, not only for the sliver of hope remaining that they are genuine but for a broader audience.

This particular thread as of now makes page three in my google search for "what is slut shaming". TTA has a diverse active community as well as a community of lurkers. I think there will be no shortage of eyes passing over this thread who perhaps could find some false belief dislodged as they consider the questions raised herein.

I'm also happy to prepare a thoughtful response because in part despite investing significant time considering the question it is something that I still haven't thought through to the point I would like to be. I'm pro-feminist. I like to think of myself as sex-positive. I believe in each person having good information to base their sexual decisions on and I believe in each person having the autonomy to make their own decisions. That said I come out of a Christian tradition and a personal experience that values chastity. I'm a married man of fourteen years. I've had one sexual partner. I don't have fully formed view as to how I would behave if I were single. Can someone be simultaneously sex-positive and chaste?

What advice will I give my children and what biases will I inject into my messages to them? They are both still in the single digits but the teenage years are fast approaching. They each have what I think is an age-appropriate understanding of sex. For Mr 5 that understanding stops at "Your private parts are just for you, they're not for sharing", and "Everyone gets to decide what happens to their body. If someone tells you that you may not, then you may not. Grown-ups go to jail if they don't listen when someone says no.". For Miss 9 that understanding extends to "sex is making babies" (no technical details mentioned), "we have taboos in society that aim to protect children from knowing things we think they shouldn't know about but taboos often need to be challenged", some implication that sex is something married people do, "it's best to delay marriage/sex/babies". I think these ideas will be good grounding for processing what they hear from peers and teachers, and I think these ideas will be good grounding to ensure they feel comfortable asking questions later and are able to articulate good questions.

So my value of chastity is something I have so far expressed as "delay". That's a middle ground I found for myself where I don't feel I'm likely to pressure my children into hiding their choices from me as they pass through puberty, but also that they don't feel like these are meaningless choices. I feel comfortable with a Laci Green or Lindsey Doe level of discourse that deals with technical issues factually and openly, focuses on consent and personal autonomy, and encourages people to be accepting of themselves.

When I think about my teenage years I think I would describe my mother as a sex-positive fundamentalist Christian, and I have inherited some of her ideas as my default. She had definite religiously-sourced ideas about sexuality. No sex before marriage. One partner for life. But at the same time she was very positive about what sex was and had to offer within the confines of marriage. I've never even as a Christian understood the idea that women would be shamed for having multiple partners while men would be praised. In my family equal criticism, forgiveness, understanding and acceptance would be offered to either sex without discrimination.

It is an area of deep struggle for me to understand exactly where the limits should lie in personal sexual behaviour. I'm happy to accept people being as promiscuous as they want to be, but what would my advice be to someone who sincerely asked for my opinion? What will my ongoing advice be to my children? I think my advice would still be to delay sex, and to minimise the number of sexual partners. But then I think - what if my child essentially saved themselves for marriage but did so outside of the Christian circles my wife and I moved in before we married? What if there is a major disparity between the sexual history between two partners. Does that matter? Might it be better not to shoot for a minimum but for an average number of sexual partners? That's the kind of question that does my head in Wink I have trouble finding a way to approach it. I don't at all rule out the possibility that my views on partner count are simply wrong.

I guess to go back to the Laci Green / Lindsey Doe fundamentals: It shouldn't matter what your sexual history is. What matters is communication. So for now I tend to think that I'll continue to teach my children that I see value in delaying sex, and that I see value in minimising the number of sexual partners they have. But whatever path they take in life I'll be there for them and support them in it.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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27-03-2015, 11:43 AM
RE: What is slut shaming?
I love the lessons your teaching your kids about everyone's bodies being their own! As to your question on whether you can be sex-positive and chaste: I think that goes hand in hand with what you said about people having the autonomy to make their own sexual decisions. Being chaste is right for some, and not for others.

As far as telling kinds that sex is for marriage and babies, I don't know if I can get on board with that. The age gap between a person becoming sexually mature, and the age of marriage is a pretty big one. Most people become sexually "mature" in their early teens, and I beleive the average age folks get married is in the late 20s range. (I used "mature" in quotes to note that I am aware that while that may be the age kids start becoming interested in sex, it doesn't necessarily mean they are mature enough for it). That's a long time to go being interested in sex,and not having it.

I think it's more important to emphasize that sex should be with someone who respects you, and that you have mutual love for. I agree that emphasizing delay until you're ready is a great idea, I just can't get on board with saying it's supposed to be for marriage and babies. It leaves room for potential guilt if you are having an otherwise healthy sexual relationship before marriage.

I know that wasn't the thrust of your post, or the main point you were trying to make, just wanted to throw my two cents out there. Loved your post.
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27-03-2015, 11:52 AM
RE: What is slut shaming?
Have SlutWalks in protest of some horrendous like comments of police officers saying girls shouldn't dress up and go to parties if they don't want to be raped still a thing? I recall a few years ago knowing some friends involved in that, but I wonder if it has become a annual event. I've looked it up and it appears to have been an early April event but don't exactly see evidence of it still being a occurrence, but I'm sure plenty of colleges are doing that.

The sex is for marriage and babies talk is part of the specific era traditional respect talk that has probably been causing more problems culturally than helping them out.

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27-03-2015, 03:10 PM
RE: What is slut shaming?
(27-03-2015 09:39 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  There are times in a public forum when as much as I may suspect deception on behalf of a questioner I'm happy to give my response, not only for the sliver of hope remaining that they are genuine but for a broader audience.

I get that, I also think some of the replies including yours have been fantastic. Just the fact that OP was not sincere leaves a very bitter taste in my mouth, *especially* since he turned out to be such a complete fuckwad. Also sorta comes across quite creepy, the idea that he might weeks in advance make this thread to prepare the ground for when he came with the anti-feminist crap later.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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27-03-2015, 06:56 PM
RE: What is slut shaming?
(27-03-2015 03:10 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(27-03-2015 09:39 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  There are times in a public forum when as much as I may suspect deception on behalf of a questioner I'm happy to give my response, not only for the sliver of hope remaining that they are genuine but for a broader audience.

I get that, I also think some of the replies including yours have been fantastic. Just the fact that OP was not sincere leaves a very bitter taste in my mouth, *especially* since he turned out to be such a complete fuckwad. Also sorta comes across quite creepy, the idea that he might weeks in advance make this thread to prepare the ground for when he came with the anti-feminist crap later.

Wow, I totally missed something. Huh
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28-03-2015, 07:11 AM (This post was last modified: 28-03-2015 07:25 AM by Hafnof.)
RE: What is slut shaming?
(27-03-2015 11:43 AM)Smercury44 Wrote:  I love the lessons your teaching your kids about everyone's bodies being their own! As to your question on whether you can be sex-positive and chaste: I think that goes hand in hand with what you said about people having the autonomy to make their own sexual decisions. Being chaste is right for some, and not for others.

As far as telling kinds that sex is for marriage and babies, I don't know if I can get on board with that. The age gap between a person becoming sexually mature, and the age of marriage is a pretty big one. Most people become sexually "mature" in their early teens, and I beleive the average age folks get married is in the late 20s range. (I used "mature" in quotes to note that I am aware that while that may be the age kids start becoming interested in sex, it doesn't necessarily mean they are mature enough for it). That's a long time to go being interested in sex,and not having it.

I think it's more important to emphasize that sex should be with someone who respects you, and that you have mutual love for. I agree that emphasizing delay until you're ready is a great idea, I just can't get on board with saying it's supposed to be for marriage and babies. It leaves room for potential guilt if you are having an otherwise healthy sexual relationship before marriage.

I know that wasn't the thrust of your post, or the main point you were trying to make, just wanted to throw my two cents out there. Loved your post.

Warning: Slightly drunk post. I've committed to clearing our never-touched collection of champagne bottles.

Thanks for your thoughts. For the record Miss 9 is completely obsessed with Sailor Moon right now - did you know that a new series Sailor Moon Crystal is currently showing in Japan? She just came back from school camp with an encouragement award for getting up in front of her peers and singing Makenai in the original Japanese.

Without getting bogged down too far in the reeds I'll try to clarify a little the messages I've been giving to my (again very pre-teen) children - primarily to my daughter as Mr 5 isn't really even asking these questions yet. When my Miss 9 was Miss 8 the words "sex" and "sexy" were being flung around quite a lot at her school either in the discourse among her peer group or in music and media. Given the age level we are talking about when my daughter asked me "what is sex, anyway?" and "what is sexy?" I didn't want to give her a non-answer, nor did I really want to say "it's when private parts touch" or something that would lead to questions that would be harder to answer at an age appropriate level and which wouldn't necessarily address the topic at hand of what people mean by sex and sexy in a popular context.

I settled in a fairly off the cuff way on sex as "making babies", which I think is actually a reasonable framework for assessing many of the cultural norms around sex. I said someone who is "sexy" is "someone you want to make babies with". This was also the point at which I talked to her about taboos and why taboos exist in society. I asked her whether she thought there was a taboo around sex and why that might be the case. We settled on the notion that people put a taboo around talking about sex to children because we don't really want children to be making children with other children. We talked about family as a structure that supports the raising of children and in general I think we talked about some of the broader issues around family planning and life choices around making babies.

My intent was to draw a direct relationship between sex and the baby making process (which I think is appropriate from a physiological and sociological perspective) and to redirect the conversation (not just one conversation, but many) onto family planning and broader social issues. I know she'll stay curious, and I know she'll come to me with more specific questions again soon enough. Once I'm sure she has a solid grasp of what family and relationship and community means and once she has a strong grasp of consent I'll be more than happy to gross her out with the sensual and body-focused elements. My estimate is that she'll be asking these questions by the time she is twelve, but if there is a sex education curriculum in her primary school as I had in mine it will probably be a touch earlier than that. I'll be ready when it comes, and will probably have a playlist of a few dozen videos to go through with her when they become relevant.

For the record I have abandoned the notion that one "should" wait until marriage or that sort of thing. As you say there is a big age gap between sexual maturity and marriage these days. If I put pressure on my children (male and female) in any direction it will be to ensure they are really in touch with their feelings and that they have thought about relationship and family and consent before they dive into particular activities. I won't be pushing some hard and fast rule about how to live or behave.

I guess maybe it also makes sense to describe the context in which many of these conversations occur. I spend a few minutes talking to my children each night as they go to bed. I ask them what has been going on in their lives and what they are interested in talking about. Over the last few nights Miss 9 and I have been talking about heroin addiction which has largely taken the form of singing popular songs to her and working through an analysis of some of the lyrics. These aren't "telling" sessions. They are opportunities for my children to lead the conversation to where they want it to go and for me to give honest answers to honest questions. For the record the songs about heroin addiction were "The needle and the Damage Done", "Hurt", and Tori Amos's "Beauty Queen/Horses".

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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28-03-2015, 03:25 PM
RE: What is slut shaming?
Honestly I find sexual experience alluring. I figure a woman would probably be better if shes more experienced. On the other hand virgins won't be able to give criticism, which would be nice.

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