What is the definition of God?
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06-10-2016, 05:59 PM (This post was last modified: 06-10-2016 06:59 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: What is the definition of God?
(06-10-2016 08:59 AM)theophilus Wrote:  He has provided proof of his existence through his creation and if we are willing to accept this evidence we can use it as a basis for logically learning more about him.

If it's "proof" then you MUST accept it.
If you have proof of something, you don't need faith.
You must be the ONLY theist who implies he needs no faith.
So which is it ?
Proof or faith ?
Put up or shut up.

How can you "logically learn" something about a god you Special Plead out of the realm of logic ?

It might be better to say "there is no coherent definition" of a god. (There isn't).
Every theist definition of a god involves Special Pleading (from logic), as well as properties and qualities that are only meaningful if one assumes the god in question exists in spacetime. A god that "exists" does not "not exist". Therefore Reality ALWAYS was larger than the god in question, and gods with qualities do not possess other qualities, and this god "found itself" as a subset of Reality. The real question is, where did Reality come from ?

Hint : it's all meaningless bullshit.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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06-10-2016, 06:16 PM
RE: What is the definition of God?
(06-10-2016 08:59 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(05-10-2016 10:56 PM)Firefighter01 Wrote:  If you can't give a logical definition, it logically can't exist.

How does inability to explain something logically prove it doesn't exist? It may show that the person trying to explain it lacks the knowledge or intelligence to explain it, but something's existence or non existence is independent of the success of our efforts to prove it exists.

Logic is a tool that non-omniscient beings can use to learn more. All logic is dependent on first accepting certain axioms that we already know to be true and making inferences from them to obtain more truth. God doesn't need logic because he is omniscient.

I define God as the one who created us and by reason of his creation is our owner and has an absolute right to our obedience. He has provided proof of his existence through his creation and if we are willing to accept this evidence we can use it as a basis for logically learning more about him. Life is too complex to have come into existence apart from the intervention of an intelligent creator. Those who acknowledge God's existence and are willing to submit to him will receive more knowledge.

So you scoff at defining god and then attempt to do it anyway by doing it exactly how the OP said not to. Nice.
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07-10-2016, 03:34 AM (This post was last modified: 07-10-2016 03:38 AM by Firefighter01.)
RE: What is the definition of God?
(06-10-2016 08:59 AM)theophilus Wrote:  How does inability to explain something logically prove it doesn't exist? It may show that the person trying to explain it lacks the knowledge or intelligence to explain it, but something's existence or non existence is independent of the success of our efforts to prove it exists.

Ok I wasn't talking about an individual, I was talking about humanity when I said "you".

Quote:Logic is a tool that non-omniscient beings can use to learn more. All logic is dependent on first accepting certain axioms that we already know to be true and making inferences from them to obtain more truth. God doesn't need logic because he is omniscient.
Hold on, how do you know that your god (whatever that is) exists, let alone having the highly dubious quality of being omniscient?

Quote:I define God as the one who created us

This is where I have to hit the failure button as per the OP.
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07-10-2016, 03:40 AM (This post was last modified: 07-10-2016 03:44 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: What is the definition of God?
(06-10-2016 08:59 AM)theophilus Wrote:  How does inability to explain something logically prove it doesn't exist?

It doesn't, but you'd better have damn good evidence to back it up.

See Also: Quantum Mechanics.


(06-10-2016 08:59 AM)theophilus Wrote:  It may show that the person trying to explain it lacks the knowledge or intelligence to explain it, but something's existence or non existence is independent of the success of our efforts to prove it exists.

That may also be true. Something certainly can exist without our belief or knowledge in it. However, sane and rational people scale their belief in something to the weight of the evidence behind it.

I enjoy Godzilla, as a concept. But to move it outside of the realm of awesomely bad Japaneses cinema and into factual reality (as in, there really is a 100~150 meter tall bipedal nuclear reactor who enjoys queit walks through a metropolis) would require a whole hell of a lot of evidence; let alone creating an Orthodox Church of Godzilla (peace be upon him).


(06-10-2016 08:59 AM)theophilus Wrote:  Logic is a tool that non-omniscient beings can use to learn more. All logic is dependent on first accepting certain axioms that we already know to be true and making inferences from them to obtain more truth. God doesn't need logic because he is omniscient.

[Image: %22Citation_needed%22.jpg]

Please explain how increased knowledge makes A be A and also Not A. It's not enough to simply assert that such things just 'are'.


(06-10-2016 08:59 AM)theophilus Wrote:  I define God as the one who created us and by reason of his creation is our owner and has an absolute right to our obedience.

I define Nork as a being who creates universe creating beings. Thus by your own definition and the transitive property, both you and your god should be absolutely obedient to Nork.

Good luck with that.


(06-10-2016 08:59 AM)theophilus Wrote:  He has provided proof of his existence through his creation and if we are willing to accept this evidence we can use it as a basis for logically learning more about him.

As has Nork! I mean, do you not see the universe that was created by the universe creating god that Nork created?

How many turtles down do you want to go?

[Image: NP_jk_turtles-blog480.jpg]


(06-10-2016 08:59 AM)theophilus Wrote:  Life is too complex to have come into existence apart from the intervention of an intelligent creator.

[Image: %22Citation_needed%22.jpg]

Just because you don't know how it works, doesn't mean you get to claim that nobody else can possibly know, and therefor your particular interpretation of a trans-dimensional, invisible, emotionally stunted space wizard did it.


(06-10-2016 08:59 AM)theophilus Wrote:  Those who acknowledge God's existence and are willing to submit to him will receive more knowledge.

Knowledge is based upon fact, and facts do not require belief; indeed they stand on their own, objectively verifiable in their own right. If this understanding you claim requires faith, then it's not factually based, and thus is not knowledge.

Please refrain from misusing the word 'knowledge' in the future.

Cordially Yours - Everyone else who fucking owns a dictionary and cares about what words actually mean.

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07-10-2016, 07:47 AM
RE: What is the definition of God?
(06-10-2016 04:23 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  My parents created me and your parents created you. Do you consider them gods?

Your parents did not create you and my parents did not create me. Our parents simply made use of the reproductive system God built into the human race when he created it.

Quote:If an alien race came down and showed that it was stronger, smarter, and more advanced then you. Would that make you want to be their pet?

Of course not. If such a race exists it is part of God's creation and is not the Creator.

Quote:Here's a thread I created with other creation stories. About how the world/universe came into being. Are any of these other gods that you were raised to believe were true immediately ignored by you as simply being faire tails. If so what method do you use to rule out those gods.

All I have claimed so far is that we live in a universe which would not have existed unless it was created. In order to learn what God is like we must first accept the truth that he is our creator.

Quote:Wouldn't it be less complex? Wouldn't a creator of all knowledge and power be able to come up with the simplest way to make things?

How do you know the way he created isn't the simplest way possible?

Quote:And this just brings up that same old question i'm sure you've heard before. What created the creator? If you can think of a being that simple came out of nothing or always was. Why when this idea applied to the universe is it unsound?

The fact that the universe is wearing out shows it couldn't be eternal but must have had a beginning. God is eternal and had no beginning.

Quote:Obviously this isn't true. Because if that was the case you would have us all stupefied with your astounding intellect. Instead your ideas are easily dismantled. And you yourself had said How does inability to explain something logically prove it doesn't exist? It may show that the person trying to explain it lacks the knowledge or intelligence to explain it, but something's existence or non existence is independent of the success of our efforts to prove it exists. You acknowledge you didn't have the answers. You've submitted to him and yet lack knowledge.

Obviously my knowledge of God is limited. If I knew everything about him I would be his equal. We can know only what he chooses to reveal about himself. One thing he has revealed is that he exists and he has created us. That is only the first part of his revelation and he has revealed it to everyone in the world. Your response shows you are unwilling to accept this revelation.

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
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07-10-2016, 07:51 AM
RE: What is the definition of God?
Wow. That's a lot of claims in one thread. It will be interesting to see the evidence to back them up. I'm assuming you are saving those for your next post.
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07-10-2016, 08:30 AM
RE: What is the definition of God?
(06-10-2016 08:59 AM)theophilus Wrote:  Life is too complex to have come into existence apart from the intervention of an intelligent creator.

To create such complex life, your god must be so much more complex than life that...he must have been created. Drinking Beverage

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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07-10-2016, 08:40 AM
RE: What is the definition of God?
(07-10-2016 07:47 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(06-10-2016 04:23 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  My parents created me and your parents created you. Do you consider them gods?

Your parents did not create you and my parents did not create me. Our parents simply made use of the reproductive system God built into the human race when he created it.

Quote:If an alien race came down and showed that it was stronger, smarter, and more advanced then you. Would that make you want to be their pet?

Of course not. If such a race exists it is part of God's creation and is not the Creator.

Quote:Here's a thread I created with other creation stories. About how the world/universe came into being. Are any of these other gods that you were raised to believe were true immediately ignored by you as simply being faire tails. If so what method do you use to rule out those gods.

All I have claimed so far is that we live in a universe which would not have existed unless it was created. In order to learn what God is like we must first accept the truth that he is our creator.

Quote:Wouldn't it be less complex? Wouldn't a creator of all knowledge and power be able to come up with the simplest way to make things?

How do you know the way he created isn't the simplest way possible?

Quote:And this just brings up that same old question i'm sure you've heard before. What created the creator? If you can think of a being that simple came out of nothing or always was. Why when this idea applied to the universe is it unsound?

The fact that the universe is wearing out shows it couldn't be eternal but must have had a beginning. God is eternal and had no beginning.

Quote:Obviously this isn't true. Because if that was the case you would have us all stupefied with your astounding intellect. Instead your ideas are easily dismantled. And you yourself had said How does inability to explain something logically prove it doesn't exist? It may show that the person trying to explain it lacks the knowledge or intelligence to explain it, but something's existence or non existence is independent of the success of our efforts to prove it exists. You acknowledge you didn't have the answers. You've submitted to him and yet lack knowledge.

Obviously my knowledge of God is limited. If I knew everything about him I would be his equal. We can know only what he chooses to reveal about himself. One thing he has revealed is that he exists and he has created us. That is only the first part of his revelation and he has revealed it to everyone in the world. Your response shows you are unwilling to accept this revelation.

So all that you have are bunch of claims with zero evidence. None of this is surprising.

I wonder if your omnipotent god could turn the little card board disc on my deity tester, this would be a first step to at at least show that it isn't imaginary:

[Image: Deitytester20_zps000c1cdc.jpg]

I'll predict you will only generate excuses as to why your god won't do this trivial task that even a monkey could do. Drinking Beverage

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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07-10-2016, 08:41 AM
RE: What is the definition of God?
Quote:Of course not. If such a race exists it is part of God's creation and is not the Creator.

But surely if a superior alien race came down and enslaved everyone forcing you to be their pet/slave it would all be part of God's plan? right?
Forced into hard labour to work for the rest of your life for the alien overlords. Allll part of Gods plan.
And if God is omnipotent and his plan is so grand, who are you to question his plan and complain about it? You are but a mare alien slave.

Quote:All I have claimed so far is that we live in a universe which would not have existed unless it was created.

Just because we don't know the origin of our universe (ie: what was before the big bang? and what was before that? and before that? etc..) doesn't mean "god did it".

Quote:One thing he has revealed is that he exists and he has created us.

Citation needed.

Quote:Your response shows you are unwilling to accept this revelation.

Because it's wrong and you have no proof.
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07-10-2016, 11:36 AM
RE: What is the definition of God?
Thanks for the response Theo.

I'll give responses but I think first I should say that as per the original post. We still don't have a valid definition on this being that you claim exists and claim to have created the universe is.

I understand you believe that this being has these "ability's" but it leaves someone that needs something more tangible then assertions. I often hold a position that leaves me curious. Seeking the truth. So hopefully you'll be able to understand that while I chip at your position. Trying to get at the caramel filled center. There is no nice way of saying you don't believe in someone else belief.

If you'll allow it Id like to explained upon some of these ideas with you. I don't try to go for the throat when I first meet someone new. Until they demonstrate that the conversation will fail to proceed.

So what do I mean when we ask We need a defintion of a god. The question asks what is it. Not what can it do, or what dose it think. But what IT is. What are it's properties? What are it quilitys? What makes a God a God and not some other Bird or a rock.

So far from what you've said is
1. Creates Universes/reality's.

So if we find a being that is able to create a universe/reality. We could be onto something.

But what if we found a being that could do this. But lacked the understand on how it did it. Or did realise the end result made anything at all. Like if it just vomited and everything came to be. Like in The Great Bumba creation story.

We're also left with the inability to see this act demonstrated. This being might do this all the time, or figured it out once and could preform it again. I don't know.

We're also left with the question how dose it create these universes. I've heard it said many different ways. Most popular is he just did it. which is equivalent to

[Image: get?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2F...DYHfCRH3Tg]

or maybe it pull from another reality. Or maybe it used a portion of itself. Or maybe it killed a giant. Creation stories often have some sort a great battle or playing field that these. being play on. What created the reality that this being lived in. If a previous "god" what ever that maybe created the following "god" would that previous "god" be more powerful then the next?

But we have never seen/experience new reality outside of our own. Let alone a being that is capable of carrying out this act. So currently all we have is hearsay.

(07-10-2016 07:47 AM)theophilus Wrote:  Your parents did not create you and my parents did not create me. Our parents simply made use of the reproductive system God built into the human race when he created it.

This sounds like more of trouble of definitions. When I think of someone creating something I think of different parts be put together that makes something different. Like if I was to make a table. I would cut wood into the required shapes to be put together. We would no longer call that table a tree because we've put it together in a different way to make something that serves a different purpose.

Our mother and father had two different components. Sperm and egg. Their bodys produced them, and that produced them from the food they ingested. The chemical reaction of those two cells created eventually made an embryo etc etc. Which then became us. Our mother did all the heavy lifting, carriering us around. 9 months of incubation. Yes it's the long way of making something. It's not like someone can just pick up some clay from the ground and call it a person.

By this quote i'm also guess you don't understand the evolutionary process. But I don't wish to get into that in this conversation. We're still trying to determine what a god is so we'll save that discussion for another day.

(07-10-2016 07:47 AM)theophilus Wrote:  If an alien race came down and showed that it was stronger, smarter, and more advanced then you. Would that make you want to be their pet?

Of course not. If such a race exists it is part of God's creation and is not the Creator.[/quote]

What's a good way of saying this?

In the far far future we find an alien race. We find out they created life on earth one of their kids did it for a school project or something. They surpass us in every way. Or they match your expectations of a god in just about every way. Expect they didn't create this universe. They just figure out how to create universes.

Would they be consider gods then?

If one part of your expectations of what a god is doesn't match up do you rule it out?
If other people have different expectations that don't match yours dose that rule out their definitions? What expectations dose a being have to fulfill to be considered a god?

If I never interact with a being that match those expectations is it reasonable for me to think that I never will. Or dose the bar need to be lowered?

Like if my expectation was he had all the quilitys that you hope for. But mine is he only wares overalls that come in green. If I came across something that only wore jankos, or overalls that were purple. Would me saying "Nope not a god!" be reasonable?

(07-10-2016 07:47 AM)theophilus Wrote:  All I have claimed so far is that we live in a universe which would not have existed unless it was created. In order to learn what God is like we must first accept the truth that he is our creator.

How did you come to that conclusion? (no being siniacle, but sinser) What are your grounds for comparison. Are there any other universe that can be presented that would demonstrate this claim.

This reminds me of a Douglas Adams quote.
Quote:“This is rather as if you imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in — an interesting hole I find myself in — fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!' This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for.”

I still don't know what a god is let alone if it is capable of creationing anything. My old thoughts of god had chaged over the course of my early life. and I find the expectations of people tend to shift from person to person.


If I told you In order to learn what Thatons are like we must first accept the truth that Xenu is the starter of the intergalactic war.

Would that be enough to convince you that Scientology is the true path?

I'd imagine not.

(07-10-2016 07:47 AM)theophilus Wrote:  How do you know the way he created isn't the simplest way possible?

Excellent question. Any ideas on how we can test this hypotheses?

(07-10-2016 07:47 AM)theophilus Wrote:  The fact that the universe is wearing out shows it couldn't be eternal but must have had a beginning. God is eternal and had no beginning.

How did you determine the universe is wearing down?
How did you determine that a god is eternal?

Odin, Zeus, Rah, are other examples of gods that had some sort of origin story. Whether it was being birth by a Giant tree. A titan, or the earth. They have some sort of beginnings and were still thought to be gods, and when people talk of them they are often accepted as being gods.

Now many of these "gods" have been pushed back into mythology. So let's apply this thinking to a "god" that is worshiped today.

Ganesh is a hindu God of Fortune and success.

[Image: ganesh-04.jpg]

The story goes he was birthed from the gods Parvati and Shiva. Ganesh is still worshiped as a god. Shiva will one day bring destruction to the universe, and all those who dwell in it. including the other gods. So we have Ganesh, seen as a god. But will has a beginning and an end. Which hardly make him eternal.

Now I realize you don't believe in this god, and neither do I. But about 1.8 billion people do. Ganesh isn't even consider a creator god. Just a guider of fates.

So what are your thoughts on why these people believe it to be a god and you don't?
Could it be from their up bringing?

I know this will fall into this so i'll just start the ball rolling.

Cosmological Arugument.
1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
2. The Universe began to exist.
3. Therefore, the Universe had a cause.

So when applying the philosophy to your god model.
1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
2. God didn't begin to exist.
3. Therefore, it doesn't have cause.

So god doesn't exist, and doesn't have a reason to exist? How can you say it dose?
Why is this "forlum" only always include #sepgod?

(07-10-2016 07:47 AM)theophilus Wrote:  Obviously my knowledge of God is limited.

agreed.

(07-10-2016 07:47 AM)theophilus Wrote:  If I knew everything about him I would be his equal.

Would you thou?

Knowledge of something doesn't mean capability. I can know how they make crayons, but it doesn't mean I have the means to make one.

And I can understand the complexitys of a tree, how it breaths, how it grows. But I wouldn't be able to be a tree.

(07-10-2016 07:47 AM)theophilus Wrote:  We can know only what he chooses to reveal about himself.

How?

(07-10-2016 07:47 AM)theophilus Wrote:  One thing he has revealed is that he exists and he has created us.

That's two things.

But again we don't even have a basis to start to build this from. There isn't a entity, or a place you show or demonstrate that these events have taken place.

There's a stand-up magician called the amazing Johnathan. He dose more jokes then magic, but the gimmick is he's a magician that's really bad at his job. One trick he dose is he takes a deck of 52 cards throws it up in the air and holds up an envelope saying he predicted the card that would fall face down.

The person on stage walks over pics up a card face down and reveals it. 99.9% the person doesn't pick up the card he called.
But there is that 1 in 52 chance that they would. Which AJ makes a grand statement on how "cool" it will be the day that trick works.

What if this creator god you believe in. Just got lucky. It threw a bunch of shit up in the air and just happened to pick that one card. Would that still be enough for your worship?

(07-10-2016 07:47 AM)theophilus Wrote:  That is only the first part of his revelation and he has revealed it to everyone in the world. Your response shows you are unwilling to accept this revelation.

Not to me.

I was willing for 29 years. Didn't come to me then ether.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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