What is the explaination for everything?
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09-02-2014, 08:39 PM
RE: What is the explaination for everything?
Hey there fmudd,

1.) I am having a hard time believing that you can't put your 'christian friend' straight on your own.

Miracles? Really? C'mon now, that's an easy one.

2.) I recommend that you stop hanging around with members of the Cafia.
I'm not saying that just because she identifies with a criminal institution that she is, by association, also a criminal... I'm saying that some of the 'stupid' might be infectious.


Yes

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09-02-2014, 08:45 PM
RE: What is the explaination for everything?
(09-02-2014 07:48 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  ...
A "miracle" is a perfectly natural "event"...

(09-02-2014 08:28 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  ...
I do poo poo ALL miracles.
...

So you are poo pooing natural events?

(09-02-2014 07:48 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  ...
A "miracle" is a perfectly natural "event"in which a believer believes she/he sees "the hand of God" operating.

Or poo pooing "the hand of God"?

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09-02-2014, 09:01 PM
RE: What is the explaination for everything?
(09-02-2014 08:26 PM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  Holy fuck! Seriously? No. There is no way. You must be fucking with me!
I won't speak for anyone else but I have not accepted as fact that there is no god. I simply reject the claim that there is a god! I'm doubting there is a Christian friend with you but if there is ask this person why s/he can't get this. It's not fucking hard! And at this point I don't know why I'm bothering with you. I mean it's obvious that you only want to spout the same bullshit regardless of how many times or in how many ways it's explained to you.
Now, my patience is worn thin so please fuck off!

Christian Friend: "First, Drunkin Druid, I apologize to you if in some way you felt forced to use vulgar language.

To come to the central tenant of your premise, I would agree if we were strictly talking about belief and faith in academic terms. However, let's be frank. It is quite impossible to simply hold an academic view on ideas such as who you are and why we are here.

For example; you don't take a purely evidential stance on getting on an airplane. You have no guaranteed assurance that a plane would land once taken off while you are in it. You have taken the knowledge of how planes work; seeing them taken off and landing, etc. to come to the conclusion that the plane you are in will land safely.

In this manner, evidence has been given to the existence of God, even if we take a purely Diest approach. From the argument of objective morality (in order for there to be objective laws there must be a lawgiver) to the fact that we don't live in a purely random world (in true randomness it is an impossibility for order to set in; the fact that a purely random set tends to even out and produce order would give more evidence that there is a God, not less). I could go on giving purely Diest arguments.

Now, you dismiss these evidences. But IN YOUR LIFE you must make a decision. And that is where it is correct to say that you have Faith that there isn't a God.

And, as for the subtle recriminations that me and fmudd aren't two people. I can assure you we are. You may chose the avenue of disbelief but that is your decision."
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09-02-2014, 09:12 PM
RE: What is the explaination for everything?
(09-02-2014 09:01 PM)fmudd Wrote:  For example; you don't take a purely evidential stance on getting on an airplane. You have no guaranteed assurance that a plane would land once taken off while you are in it. You have taken the knowledge of how planes work; seeing them taken off and landing, etc. to come to the conclusion that the plane you are in will land safely.

Um, that is an evidential stance.

(09-02-2014 09:01 PM)fmudd Wrote:  From the argument of objective morality (in order for there to be objective laws there must be a lawgiver)

Morality is subjective.

(09-02-2014 09:01 PM)fmudd Wrote:  we don't live in a purely random world (in true randomness it is an impossibility for order to set in; the fact that a purely random set tends to even out and produce order would give more evidence that there is a God, not less)

That's entirely debatable. Who's to say there's nothing random about the universe? Things tend to order themselves in the universe according to entropy, driven by energy. Evolution itself is works on randomness and we have a pretty damn good base model for how life came about and evolved into self-realizing forms naturally.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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09-02-2014, 09:12 PM
RE: What is the explaination for everything?
(09-02-2014 09:01 PM)fmudd Wrote:  In this manner, evidence has been given to the existence of God, even if we take a purely Diest approach. From the argument of objective morality (in order for there to be objective laws there must be a lawgiver) to the fact that we don't live in a purely random world (in true randomness it is an impossibility for order to set in; the fact that a purely random set tends to even out and produce order would give more evidence that there is a God, not less). I could go on giving purely Diest arguments.

You could go on giving purely "God of Gaps" arguments, and it would not make you any less idiotic then you already seem to be.

evidence has been given to the existence of God
You mean , here is some obvious man made fiction, you should believe it on faith or burn in fire. Yes= paradise, No=Fire, Questions=Fire

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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09-02-2014, 09:20 PM
RE: What is the explaination for everything?
(09-02-2014 09:01 PM)fmudd Wrote:  
(09-02-2014 08:26 PM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  Holy fuck! Seriously? No. There is no way. You must be fucking with me!
I won't speak for anyone else but I have not accepted as fact that there is no god. I simply reject the claim that there is a god! I'm doubting there is a Christian friend with you but if there is ask this person why s/he can't get this. It's not fucking hard! And at this point I don't know why I'm bothering with you. I mean it's obvious that you only want to spout the same bullshit regardless of how many times or in how many ways it's explained to you.
Now, my patience is worn thin so please fuck off!

Christian Friend: "First, Drunkin Druid, I apologize to you if in some way you felt forced to use vulgar language.

To come to the central tenant of your premise, I would agree if we were strictly talking about belief and faith in academic terms. However, let's be frank. It is quite impossible to simply hold an academic view on ideas such as who you are and why we are here.

For example; you don't take a purely evidential stance on getting on an airplane. You have no guaranteed assurance that a plane would land once taken off while you are in it. You have taken the knowledge of how planes work; seeing them taken off and landing, etc. to come to the conclusion that the plane you are in will land safely.

In this manner, evidence has been given to the existence of God, even if we take a purely Diest approach. From the argument of objective morality (in order for there to be objective laws there must be a lawgiver) to the fact that we don't live in a purely random world (in true randomness it is an impossibility for order to set in; the fact that a purely random set tends to even out and produce order would give more evidence that there is a God, not less). I could go on giving purely Diest arguments.

Now, you dismiss these evidences. But IN YOUR LIFE you must make a decision. And that is where it is correct to say that you have Faith that there isn't a God.

And, as for the subtle recriminations that me and fmudd aren't two people. I can assure you we are. You may chose the avenue of disbelief but that is your decision."

That's not evidence, that's speculation. Your reasoning is faulty because there is nothing that logically points towards a god, it only raises questions about how those things come to happen (if at all, objective morality is highly questionable), but those don't offer any answer, so the only reasonable stance in face of those examples you gave is accepting our own ignorance and work our way to figure things out.

You just jump into the conclusion that it must be a god, but that's a fallacy. It would also be a fallacy to say that there is absolute certainty of the absence of a god, and we don't do that.

We have seen that usually supernatural explanations are false and supernatural beings are just rationalizations humans do about things we don't understand. So, following your own reasoning about experience with the plane, we don't accept the notion of a supernatural god and search for others, because that's what experience mandates.

But we are honest to ourselves, planes may fall, everybody know that when they step inside a plane, cars may crash, we all know it when we get inside one. But we don't live our lives in fear of that possibility, we just keep it in a corner in our minds and keep going, does that mean we have faith that planes don't fall or that cars don't crash? Of course not!
In the same way, we don't have faith that god doesn't exist, we just live our lives without paying attention to a most likely false notion, but in a corner in our minds there's the acceptance that we can't say for sure it doesn't exist.

That's how we live with an academic view, we're honest to ourselves about our own ignorance and just live with it, we don't patch our own fallibility with unfounded faith, or as we like to call it, self-deception.

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09-02-2014, 09:37 PM (This post was last modified: 09-02-2014 09:43 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: What is the explaination for everything?
(09-02-2014 09:01 PM)fmudd Wrote:  In this manner, evidence has been given to the existence of God, even if we take a purely Diest approach. From the argument of objective morality (in order for there to be objective laws there must be a lawgiver) to the fact that we don't live in a purely random world (in true randomness it is an impossibility for order to set in; the fact that a purely random set tends to even out and produce order would give more evidence that there is a God, not less). I could go on giving purely Diest arguments.

There is no "objective morality". You would know that if you had studied Anthropology. All morality is situationally dependent. All cultures have evolved different codes which promote, in various ways, their evolutionary survival. Moral codes EVOLVED, and were not "given". The morality in the Bible was TAKEN from the culture in which the Bible CAME FROM. It was not GIVEN to the culture. You have it exactly backwards. It's easily proven.

There is no "evidence" for a deity. Faith is a virtue .. a "gift of the Spirit", according to St. Paul, in YOUR religion. Your statement concerning randomness demonstrates you have never studied Chaos Theory and/or Probability. Neither of which lead to any deity. Your "deist" arguments are all crap. Simply things you don't understand, and for which you posit a god as the only explanation your uneducated brain can conceive of, as you lack creativity, and have developed habits of thought that you cannot seem to escape. They are all "god of the gaps" arguments.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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09-02-2014, 09:47 PM (This post was last modified: 09-02-2014 09:52 PM by Drunkin Druid.)
RE: What is the explaination for everything?
(09-02-2014 09:01 PM)fmudd Wrote:  
(09-02-2014 08:26 PM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  Holy fuck! Seriously? No. There is no way. You must be fucking with me!
I won't speak for anyone else but I have not accepted as fact that there is no god. I simply reject the claim that there is a god! I'm doubting there is a Christian friend with you but if there is ask this person why s/he can't get this. It's not fucking hard! And at this point I don't know why I'm bothering with you. I mean it's obvious that you only want to spout the same bullshit regardless of how many times or in how many ways it's explained to you.
Now, my patience is worn thin so please fuck off!

Christian Friend: "First, Drunkin Druid, I apologize to you if in some way you felt forced to use vulgar language.

To come to the central tenant of your premise, I would agree if we were strictly talking about belief and faith in academic terms. However, let's be frank. It is quite impossible to simply hold an academic view on ideas such as who you are and why we are here.

For example; you don't take a purely evidential stance on getting on an airplane. You have no guaranteed assurance that a plane would land once taken off while you are in it. You have taken the knowledge of how planes work; seeing them taken off and landing, etc. to come to the conclusion that the plane you are in will land safely.

In this manner, evidence has been given to the existence of God, even if we take a purely Diest approach. From the argument of objective morality (in order for there to be objective laws there must be a lawgiver) to the fact that we don't live in a purely random world (in true randomness it is an impossibility for order to set in; the fact that a purely random set tends to even out and produce order would give more evidence that there is a God, not less). I could go on giving purely Diest arguments.

Now, you dismiss these evidences. But IN YOUR LIFE you must make a decision. And that is where it is correct to say that you have Faith that there isn't a God.

And, as for the subtle recriminations that me and fmudd aren't two people. I can assure you we are. You may chose the avenue of disbelief but that is your decision."

I'm going to use a little more vulgarity. Bullshit.
No I don't have to make a decision. I don't have faith there is no god I simply reject your claim there is a god. There is a difference. I don't have faith in planes I simply understand how planes work. That is not faith. It is knowledge!
You say there has to be a lawgiver in order for there to be objective laws and that this is evidence for god. You must demonstrate that this is true. Otherwise you are speaking out your ass. What evidence do you have showing there must be a lawgiver? How do you know that? Also you must demonstrate that morals are objective. Now I'm not saying they are or not but you still must demonstrate it! Otherwise once again you are speaking out your ass!
I will say it again. One more time.My rejection of your claim that there is a god is not faith based. This is a very simple concept that a 6 year old can understand. My rejection of the claim that there is a Bigfoot is not faith based. My rejection of the claim that there are leprechauns is not faith based. Unicorns, reptilian overlords, mermaids and elves. Do you reject the claim that these are all real. I suspect you might, though I'm not sure. Would that rejection be faith based?
Now seriously, I'm tired of this. We are going in circles and you are not comprehending. I think you can understand but you just won't.
And please don't apologize to me for my behaviour just so you can have the moral high ground. Instead, just stop bullshitting me!
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09-02-2014, 09:51 PM
RE: What is the explaination for everything?
Simple question Fmudd,

Is to disbelieve in Santa Claus a faith ? Yes or No

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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09-02-2014, 10:19 PM
RE: What is the explaination for everything?
(09-02-2014 09:51 PM)sporehux Wrote:  Simple question Fmudd,

Is to disbelieve in Santa Claus a faith ? Yes or No

Christian friend: "No, Santa Claus was created specifically as fiction and was never meant to be taken as fact to be believed in.

In terms of Christianity; the New Testaments are historical accounts grounded by multiple sources.

If we were to compare Christianity (or even God in general from a Deist standpoint) the two hardly compares.

This would be a false comparison."
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