What is the explaination for everything?
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10-02-2014, 01:05 AM
RE: What is the explaination for everything?
(10-02-2014 12:52 AM)fmudd Wrote:  
(10-02-2014 12:42 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  So what was god talking about when he demanded you not have any other gods before him? Was he talking about all those other gods that just happened to be him?

Christian Friend: "He was talking partially about different representations of Him that did not fit his nature.

You must also understand that God was also talking about money (Greed), lust, vengeance, etc.

For example, don't worship "money", don't worship "violence", etc.

He was talking about truth within that as well.

The idea is to worship the truest form of God and only that God.

There is a lot of theology here but that is the simplest I can explain that. This is indeed a complex topic."
Apologist nonsense! Trust me, I know Christianity a lot better than you might expect!
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10-02-2014, 01:05 AM
RE: What is the explaination for everything?
(10-02-2014 12:59 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  No we don't. We can not come to an agreement on whether there is a higher power or not because neither of us has enough information to do so. You claim there is and I reject that claim on the basis that you have no evidence. It is exactly like Santa Claus and mermaids.
Once again you are being dishonest. First. I didn't ask if you believe in the god Muhammad worshiped. I asked if you accept the claims I posted. Second. You said you must research the claims. You don't need to do that in this instance and the fact that you said you do shows that you are suspending belief until you have more facts. In essence you do not (at least yet) that the claims are true. That is exactly my stance on god. I suspend belief until I get more info.

Christian Friend: "Again, I believe sufficient evidence is given; people claim objective morality doesn't exist when I clearly see it does. If morality truly is subjective what compels us to denounce slavery, for example?

And I am not suspending belief in the way that you think I am; miracles by divine entities are performed such that you believe in the message that the miracle worker is giving. So; Muhammad proclaimed a higher deity while performing said miracles. I believe in the higher deity that he is professing to. Whether there are specific things that map between our faith and the faith Muhammed presented versus what doesn't map is another discussion.

But there is no suspension of belief. I belief in God, which is in fact the same "God" (Muslims will actually tell Christians this all of the time."
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10-02-2014, 01:07 AM
RE: What is the explaination for everything?
(10-02-2014 01:02 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  Oh. And I do apologize for going off on you earlier. It was not cool.

Christian friend: "Thank you. I appreciate that. I apologize too if I said something that offended you or anyone here."
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10-02-2014, 01:10 AM
RE: What is the explaination for everything?
(10-02-2014 12:59 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  
(10-02-2014 12:46 AM)fmudd Wrote:  Christian Friend: "Answered. Yes; I believe in the God Muhammad worshiped. As for particular claims and characteristics about the same God both he and I worship I would have to research them. I ultimately do believe in miracles so it just depends on each one as they come along.

Before we debate specifics we need to keep the focus on whether there is in fact a higher power or not."

No we don't. We can not come to an agreement on whether there is a higher power or not because neither of us has enough information to do so. You claim there is and I reject that claim on the basis that you have no evidence. It is exactly like Santa Claus and mermaids.
Once again you are being dishonest. First. I didn't ask if you believe in the god Muhammad worshiped. I asked if you accept the claims I posted. Second. You said you must research the claims. You don't need to do that in this instance and the fact that you said you do shows that you are suspending belief until you have more facts. In essence you do not (at least yet) believe that the claims are true. That is exactly my stance on god. I suspend belief until I get more info.
Do you understand now? You see the only problem I have here is your claim that my rejection of god is faith based. If you want to discuss the existence of god I (and I'm sure many others) would be happy to oblige but you unfounded claim is making it hard to respect your opinion.
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10-02-2014, 01:12 AM
RE: What is the explaination for everything?
(10-02-2014 01:07 AM)fmudd Wrote:  
(10-02-2014 01:02 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  Oh. And I do apologize for going off on you earlier. It was not cool.

Christian friend: "Thank you. I appreciate that. I apologize too if I said something that offended you or anyone here."
Only that my position is faith based. We'll I'm not so much offended by that. Just really annoyed!
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10-02-2014, 01:19 AM
RE: What is the explaination for everything?
(10-02-2014 01:10 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  Do you understand now? You see the only problem I have here is your claim that my rejection of god is faith based. If you want to discuss the existence of god I (and I'm sure many others) would be happy to oblige but you unfounded claim is making it hard to respect your opinion.

Christian Friend: "I will try to answer this question as respectfully as I can.

I do understand that you say that you reject God based on an evidential standpoint. So would it fair to say that you don't believe in God based on insufficient evidence? Because conversely, that would still mean, to me, that you have no evidence to NOT believe in God, just that you reject specific representations of God as given."
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10-02-2014, 01:25 AM
RE: What is the explaination for everything?
(10-02-2014 12:57 AM)fmudd Wrote:  
(10-02-2014 12:43 AM)nach_in Wrote:  I'd like an answer to my post.

Oh, and btw, it's not the same to believe in a higher power than to believe in a certain and well defined god. We can actually disprove the existence of gods when they are well defined. But theist tend to be so pesky with their definitions huh? I wonder how can they actually believe in something if they can't even say what that is. Consider

Christian Friend: "A wonderful post; thank you for sharing.

I will go in depth tomorrow (tired now Sleepy ) but some quick points.

Objective morality most certainly does exist; how can we say Jerry Sandusky did a bad thing versus saying he did something we really don't prefer?


How can we say that slavery as practiced in the past was wrong and that the people in the past who enslaved people were wrong to do so as opposed to saying there was a cultural misunderstanding or again, not our preference?

We can't, that's my position and if you or your "friend" wish to discuss it further make a thread about it. I'll gladly post there, but I don't want to derail this one.


Quote:And your item about acceptance is of utmost interest to me; I do believe that we are getting closer here.

Again, thank you."

Ok, cool, I hope you and your friend will make an effort not to twist my words and make them say things I didn't meant. I'll wait...

[Image: sigvacachica.png]
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10-02-2014, 01:32 AM
RE: What is the explaination for everything?
(10-02-2014 01:05 AM)fmudd Wrote:  
(10-02-2014 12:59 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  No we don't. We can not come to an agreement on whether there is a higher power or not because neither of us has enough information to do so. You claim there is and I reject that claim on the basis that you have no evidence. It is exactly like Santa Claus and mermaids.
Once again you are being dishonest. First. I didn't ask if you believe in the god Muhammad worshiped. I asked if you accept the claims I posted. Second. You said you must research the claims. You don't need to do that in this instance and the fact that you said you do shows that you are suspending belief until you have more facts. In essence you do not (at least yet) that the claims are true. That is exactly my stance on god. I suspend belief until I get more info.

Christian Friend: "Again, I believe sufficient evidence is given; people claim objective morality doesn't exist when I clearly see it does. If morality truly is subjective what compels us to denounce slavery, for example?

And I am not suspending belief in the way that you think I am; miracles by divine entities are performed such that you believe in the message that the miracle worker is giving. So; Muhammad proclaimed a higher deity while performing said miracles. I believe in the higher deity that he is professing to. Whether there are specific things that map between our faith and the faith Muhammed presented versus what doesn't map is another discussion.

But there is no suspension of belief. I belief in God, which is in fact the same "God" (Muslims will actually tell Christians this all of the time."

I think slavery is wrong. That is what I was taught. There are people who think slavery is fine (like god or whoever wrote the bible). Morality seems pretty subjective to me. Now I could be wrong but that's what it looks like. You will notice that I haven't claimed that morality is subjective or otherwise. I don't claim to know things that I can't know. So no. The evidence isn't good enough.
Yeah I'm fully aware that Allah and Yahweh or the same god. Another irrelevancy. And yes you are suspending belief in the way I think. There is only one way to suspend belief. If you do not accept the claim due to the fact that you need to research it further than you do not yet accept the claim as truth. You only accept that it might be possible. Once again this is exactly my stance on god. So I ask you again. Do you believe that Muhammad split the moon?
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10-02-2014, 01:40 AM (This post was last modified: 10-02-2014 02:03 AM by DLJ.)
RE: What is the explaination for everything?
If I may step in to correct an obvious typo:

(10-02-2014 12:57 AM)fmudd Wrote:  ...
Objective Subjective morality most certainly does exist; how can we say Jerry Sandusky did a bad thing versus saying he did something we really don't prefer?

How can we say that slavery as practiced in the past was wrong and that the people in the past who enslaved people were wrong to do so as opposed to saying there was a cultural misunderstanding or again, not our preference?
...

As soon as there is a reference to 'we', there is no objectivity.

Any time. No need to thank me. Big Grin

(09-02-2014 09:20 PM)nach_in Wrote:  
(09-02-2014 09:01 PM)fmudd Wrote:  ...
For example; you don't take a purely evidential stance on getting on an airplane. You have no guaranteed assurance that a plane would land once taken off while you are in it. You have taken the knowledge of how planes work; seeing them taken off and landing, etc. to come to the conclusion that the plane you are in will land safely.
...

...
But we are honest to ourselves, planes may fall, everybody know that when they step inside a plane, cars may crash, we all know it when we get inside one. But we don't live our lives in fear of that possibility, we just keep it in a corner in our minds and keep going, does that mean we have faith that planes don't fall or that cars don't crash? Of course not!
...

This is my favourite faith test. I love it when this one comes up.

I sometimes use it to explain the meaning of the word 'assurance' in class (often to a largely muslim audience)

Simple thought experiment:

You enter an airport ticket area.

There are two counters ahead of you. Each with a huge sign above them advertising their services.

Sign One:
Smile Welcome to Faith Airlines Smile

Assurance Statement:
Thumbsup "We pray for your safe arrival" Thumbsup

Sign Two:
Smile Welcome to Science Airlines Smile

Assurance Statement:
Thumbsup "Based on rigourous (load and stress) testing, on-going maintenance activity (in line with and audited against internationally recognised safety standards (themselves subject to "continual improvement" research and development activities)), we have a very, very high degree of confidence that your journey will be trouble-free (run to schedule; take off and land safely; disaster recovery measures have been implemented and tested; insurance is pre-paid (please provide contact numbers of your next of kin) " Thumbsup

Which would you choose?

Smartass

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10-02-2014, 01:54 AM
RE: What is the explaination for everything?
(10-02-2014 01:19 AM)fmudd Wrote:  
(10-02-2014 01:10 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  Do you understand now? You see the only problem I have here is your claim that my rejection of god is faith based. If you want to discuss the existence of god I (and I'm sure many others) would be happy to oblige but you unfounded claim is making it hard to respect your opinion.

Christian Friend: "I will try to answer this question as respectfully as I can.

I do understand that you say that you reject God based on an evidential standpoint. So would it fair to say that you don't believe in God based on insufficient evidence? Because conversely, that would still mean, to me, that you have no evidence to NOT believe in God, just that you reject specific representations of God as given."

Not quite. This is where Santa Claus and all other things people don't believe comes in. I don't need evidence to not believe a claim. I need evidence that supports the claim to accept it. So if you claim something extraordinary I will need evidence.and that evidence will need to be extraordinary. I cannot accept your claim without it. Just like I cannot accept Santa Claus or alien abductions without some major evidence. This goes for everything. I did not accept evolution until I had enough evidence to convince me. I didn't say it was a lie I simply suspended belief. This is how a rational mind works. It cannot accept anything as truth without evidence.
So you see the origins of a story or character doesn't matter. What I am arguing against is the idea that suspending belief is faith based. It is obviously not and you are simply wrong about it.
Like I said I do not say that god don't exist. I simply reject the claim that he does. I suspend belief. In essence I await more information before I accept the claim. I would understand the assertion that my position is faith based if I claimed beyond doubt there is no god. But that's not my position.
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