What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
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24-05-2016, 07:54 PM
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
Carrier does use a lot of big words. Xtians regard that as unfair.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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24-05-2016, 08:03 PM
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
There's great debate about JC among non-believers. While both sides agree He's not the divine son-of-God from the Bible, one side says He was based on a real man (though not a God-like one) while the other says He never existed at all.

I think I'm in the latter camp: He's complete myth. I find the well-researched arguments of Dr. Richard Carrier and Dr. Robert M. Price to be convincing. Myth!
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25-05-2016, 06:28 AM
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
(24-05-2016 07:58 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
Quote:Some jews believed that's what the messiah would do, other early jews didn't think that at all. The messiah they were expecting, as understood by them, wasn't gonna be restoring any earthly kingdom. These others jews, believed that the messiah would be restoring a spiritual kingdom, not an earthly one.

Prove it. The apostles were not. Why would he pick from the group that didn't buy into his scenario ?

And BTW, WHAT. THE. FUCK. is an "early Jew" ? FacepalmWeepingFacepalm

I think little Tommy Boy is sounding VERY desperate here. He knows even his bullshit is wearing thin.

You want me to prove to you that their were was an early Jewish community that was expecting a spiritual messiah, to restore a spiritual kingdom, as opposed to an earthly one? That this community awaited a messiah that would die and restore the spiritual order, unlike other jews at the time who were expecting a political figure?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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25-05-2016, 06:33 AM (This post was last modified: 25-05-2016 08:42 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
(24-05-2016 09:45 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  Ridiculous. Tell me, do you also believe that 'god' sent an angel to dictate the koran to mohammed in a cave while he slept?

Uhm, it's not ridiculous that Jewish messianic expectations at the time, were expecting a historical political figure. Do you believe that they weren't expecting a historical person? That some were expecting a non-historical messiah?

Quote:I suggest you read Carrier. No one needs it more than you.

I find myself hearing more atheists appealing to Carrier, but very few of them ever seem to use his arguments for support.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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25-05-2016, 07:23 AM
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
(24-05-2016 03:28 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Prophesy :
He's gonna say he did read Carrier. He can't argue any of the points, but he claims to have read him already.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner!

tommyboy:
"I find myself hearing more atheists appealing to Carrier, but very of them ever seem to use his arguments for support."

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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25-05-2016, 12:19 PM
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
(25-05-2016 06:33 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(24-05-2016 09:45 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  Ridiculous. Tell me, do you also believe that 'god' sent an angel to dictate the koran to mohammed in a cave while he slept?

Uhm, it's not ridiculous that Jewish messianic expectations at the time, were expecting a historical political figure. Do you believe that they weren't expecting a historical person? That some were expecting a non-historical messiah?

Quote:I suggest you read Carrier. No one needs it more than you.

I find myself hearing more atheists appealing to Carrier, but very few of them ever seem to use his arguments for support.


Well now you have met one. He has systematically demolished the so-called "evidence" which xtians have traditionally trotted out for their god boy and reached the conclusion:

Quote:That Christianity began as a visionary cult prone to hallucinating fantastical
things (Elements 1 5 and 1 6) makes it all more likely still-because it
eliminates the need of a historical man to die. A charismatic leader could
simply hallucinate a dying savior in the sky. And the fact that all mystery
religions composed exoteric (public) myths to conceal their esoteric (secret)
cosmological doctrines (Element 1 4), and Christianity had secret doctrines
from its earliest recorded time (Element 1 3), best explains the sequence of
evidence in the record: no historical Jesus in the earliest documents and
gospels (those in the Pauline and quasi-Pauline Epistles, as shown in Chapter
1 1 ), then suddenly wildly mythological literary constructs of Jesus in the
Gospels (Chapter 1 0), with no corroborating evidence outside these sacred
documents (Chapter 8), and even some evidence of a progression from myth
to history (Chapters 8 and 9). In fact, Paul does not seem to have known of
any evidence of Jesus other than by revelation and scripture (Element 1 9,
with Chapter 1 1 ). Jesus was then rapidly built up into a standard but otherwise
Jewish version of a Rank-Raglan hero (Element 48). Yet no known
Rank-Raglan heroes have ever been historical (Chapter 6, §3), which only
further pushes us to the obvious conclusion.
And that's it. There simply is no other evidence to go by (Chapter 7).

Now tell me all about your fucking jesus as if I haven't heard it all before.

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25-05-2016, 02:23 PM
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
(25-05-2016 12:19 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  "That Christianity began as a visionary cult prone to hallucinating fantastical
things (Elements 1 5 and 1 6) makes it all more likely still-because it
eliminates the need of a historical man to die."

You would think with all the now nearly universally acknowledge garbage spewed by mythicist such as Archaya X, Kersey Graves, the shit that gets peddled in the Zeitgeist movies, like 16 crucified saviors, that todays atheists would wise up by now.

You likely took a statement like that from Carrier, and just gobbled it up, and didn’t actually bother to look into whatever references he cites to draw this conclusion. It’s not true. There is no evidence to support that idea that Christianity begun by a cult prone to hallucinating, lol. Where the smoking drugs or some shit?


Quote:A charismatic leader could
simply hallucinate a dying savior in the sky.

Please show us the first century sources, that allows us to reasonably conclude that there was a early cult that halluincated dying savior in the sky.

Quote:no historical Jesus in the earliest documents and
gospels (those in the Pauline and quasi-Pauline Epistles, as shown in Chapter
1 1 )

Except of course these Pauline and quasi, pauline writings, have Paul's accounts of meeting Jesus’s disciples and brothers, having an earthly parentage, crucifixion, etc.. In fact in 1 Tim 6:13, Paul cites Jesus as testifying in front of Pontius Pilate. Of course folks like Carrier, and his sheepies, attempt to explain these pesky points away, quite pathetically, stretching credulity, to support the bogus idea that Paul didn't believe in a historical Jesus.



Quote: In fact, Paul does not seem to have known of
any evidence of Jesus other than by revelation and scripture (Element 1 9,
with Chapter 1 1 ).

See above.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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25-05-2016, 02:29 PM
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
(25-05-2016 06:28 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(24-05-2016 07:58 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Prove it. The apostles were not. Why would he pick from the group that didn't buy into his scenario ?

And BTW, WHAT. THE. FUCK. is an "early Jew" ? FacepalmWeepingFacepalm

I think little Tommy Boy is sounding VERY desperate here. He knows even his bullshit is wearing thin.

You want me to prove to you that their were was an early Jewish community that was expecting a spiritual messiah, to restore a spiritual kingdom, as opposed to an earthly one? That this community awaited a messiah that would die and restore the spiritual order, unlike other jews at the time who were expecting a political figure?

The Hebrews existed as a recognizable group, at the time of your Jebus, for about 1200 years, (if he existed). I want you to tell us how that makes the Jews at the time "early". Facepalm

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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25-05-2016, 02:38 PM
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
(25-05-2016 06:28 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  You want me to prove to you that their were was an early Jewish community that was expecting a spiritual messiah, to restore a spiritual kingdom, as opposed to an earthly one? That this community awaited a messiah that would die and restore the spiritual order, unlike other jews at the time who were expecting a political figure?

I would be very interested in seeing this proof. -And I hope it's not for some weird, "out there" cultist movement like the Essenes or something. That would be like me trying to claim that Christianity (as a whole, or even as a majority) follows the beliefs and values held by the Westboro Baptist Church or that Christianity is the same as Scientology because both of them use the word "church" and both have a cross as their official symbol.

I'd like to see evidence of mainstream Jews who practiced traditional Judaism and believed in a spiritual kingdom. -A few nuts living in a cave will not impress me at all.
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25-05-2016, 03:12 PM
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/philo.html

"The "witnesses" who saw and heard nothing

As it happens, we have an excellent witness to events in Judaea and the Jewish diaspora in the first half of the first century AD: Philo of Alexandria (c25 BC-47 AD).

Philo was an old man when he led an embassy from the Jews to the court of Emperor Gaius Caligula. The year was 39-40 AD. Philo clearly, then, lived at precisely the time that "Jesus of Nazareth" supposedly entered the world to a chorus of angels, enthralled the multitudes by performing miracles, and got himself crucified.

Philo was also in the right place to give testimony of a messianic contender. A Jewish aristocrat and leader of the large Jewish community of Alexandria, we know that Philo spent time in Jerusalem (On Providence) where he had intimate connections with the royal house of Judaea. His brother, Alexander the "alabarch" (chief tax official), was one of the richest men in the east, in charge of collecting levies on imports into Roman Egypt. Alexander's great wealth financed the silver and gold sheathing which adorned the doors of the Temple (Josephus, War 5.205). Alexander also loaned a fortune to Herod Agrippa I (Antiquities 18).

One of Alexander's sons, and Philo's nephews, Marcus, was married to Berenice, daughter of Herod Agrippa, tetrarch of Galilee and Peraea, 39-40. After the exile of Herod Antipas – villain of the Jesus saga – he ruled as King of the Jews, 41-44 AD. Another nephew was the "apostate" Julius Alexander Tiberius, Prefect of Egypt and also Procurator of Judaea itself (46-48 AD).

Much as Josephus would, a half century later, Philo wrote extensive apologetics on the Jewish religion and commentaries on contemporary politics. About thirty manuscripts and at least 850,000 words are extant. Philo offers commentary on all the major characters of the Pentateuch and, as we might expect, mentions Moses more than a thousand times.

Yet Philo says not a word about Jesus, Christianity nor any of the events described in the New Testament. In all this work, Philo makes not a single reference to his alleged contemporary "Jesus Christ", the godman who supposedly was perambulating up and down the Levant, exorcising demons, raising the dead and causing earthquake and darkness at his death.

With Philo's close connection to the house of Herod, one might reasonably expect that the miraculous escape from a royal prison of a gang of apostles (Acts 5.18,40), or the second, angel-assisted, flight of Peter, even though chained between soldiers and guarded by four squads of troops (Acts 12.2,7) might have occasioned the odd footnote. But not a murmur. Nothing of Agrippa "vexing certain of the church" or killing "James brother of John" with the sword (Acts 12.1,2).

Strange, but only if we believe Jesus and his merry men existed and that they established the church. If we recognize that the Christian fable was still at an early stage of development when Philo was pondering the relationship of god and man, there is nothing strange here at all.

What is very significant, however, is that Philo's theological speculations helped the Christians fabricate their own notions of a godman.
Where did they get their ideas from?
Mocking Jesus – or Agrippa?
The mocking of a real Jewish king

The death of the Herod the Great's son, Philip, in 34 AD, left the tetrarchy of Panias and Batanaea without a local king. In 39, Caligula sent Herod Antipas, tetrarch of Galilee and Peraea, into exile. Caligula now turned to Herod the Great's grandson, Herod Agrippa, for a client king and Agrippa was made ruler of all the Jewish lands apart from Judaea.

On the voyage home from Rome, this new King of the Jews, stopped over in Alexandria where his presence in the city provoked anti-Jewish riots. Agrippa became the target of ridicule and lampoon.

Philo described the course of events in his work named for the anti-Jewish governor of Egypt, Flaccus. His work was familiar to the early Christians when decades after his death they composed the gospels. One passage of Flaccus contains a curious pre-figuring of several famous verses found in the Gospels.

But then the Lord moves in curious ways.
The Works of Philo Judaeus – Flaccus, VI.

(36) There was a certain madman named Carabbas ... this man spent all this days and nights naked in the roads, minding neither cold nor heat, the sport of idle children and wanton youths;

(37) and they, driving the poor wretch as far as the public gymnasium, and setting him up there on high that he might be seen by everybody, flattened out a leaf of papyrus and put it on his head instead of a diadem, and clothed the rest of his body with a common door mat instead of a cloak and instead of a sceptre they put in his hand a small stick of the native papyrus which they found lying by the way side and gave to him;

(38) and when, like actors in theatrical spectacles, he had received all the insignia of royal authority, and had been dressed and adorned like a king, the young men bearing sticks on their shoulders stood on each side of him instead of spear-bearers, in imitation of the bodyguards of the king, and then others came up, some as if to salute him, and others making as though they wished to plead their causes before him, and others pretending to wish to consult with him about the affairs of the state.

(39) Then from the multitude of those who were standing around there arose a wonderful shout of men calling out Maris!; and this is the name by which it is said that they call the kings among the Syrians; for they knew that Agrippa was by birth a Syrian, and also that he was possessed of a great district of Syria of which he was the sovereign;

Matthew
27:26 Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.
27:27 Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the common hall, and gathered unto him the whole band of soldiers.
27:28 And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe.
27:29 And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!"

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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