What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
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25-05-2016, 03:24 PM (This post was last modified: 25-05-2016 09:53 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
(25-05-2016 02:23 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  You would think with all the now nearly universally acknowledge garbage spewed by mythicist such as Archaya X, Kersey Graves, the shit that gets peddled in the Zeitgeist movies, like 16 crucified saviors, that todays atheists would wise up by now.

Yet more self-righteous generalizations about atheists. I've never even read or heard about these two. You seem to think you know atheists pretty well. Do you go to "Bible Study & Let's Make up Shit About Atheists" ?

There is evidence that mushrooms contributed. The fact you don't know that, is evidence of you ignorance of the topic.

The fact you don't know about the cosmic dying saviors in the sky, which Philo (and Carrier) talked about, is more evidence that you know nothing about Carrier's arguments, and also have never read Philo. But why do anything ? You already told us you are a presupositionalist, and would believe in the god which was believed in the culture you grew up in, no matter which system that was.

Quote:Except of course these Pauline and quasi, pauline writings, have Paul's accounts of meeting Jesus’s disciples and brothers, having an earthly parentage, crucifixion, etc.. In fact in 1 Tim 6:13, Paul cites Jesus as testifying in front of Pontius Pilate. Of course folks like Carrier, and his sheepies, attempt to explain these pesky points away, quite pathetically, stretching credulity, to support the bogus idea that Paul didn't believe in a historical Jesus.

One did. One didn't. There is more than one "Paul". They fucked it up.
One said he got his gospel from the apostles.
One said he got it from no man, directly from his apparition.

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25-05-2016, 05:44 PM
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
Quote:You likely took a statement like that from Carrier, and just gobbled it up, and didn’t actually bother to look into whatever references he cites to draw this conclusion.

Wrong, asshole. You see, the conclusion comes at the end of the book and in the preceding chapters he thoroughly demolished your holy horseshit.

I don't give a fuck about Acharya or the 1880's scholarship of Graves. If you can't stay on the subject, just pack it in. IF you want to believe in your stupid fucking bible go ahead. But if you show up bellowing that bullshit as if it is real you are going to hear about it.

Got it, now?

Why don't you read the book...or are you afraid your head will explode?

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25-05-2016, 05:49 PM
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
(16-05-2016 09:43 AM)Holle03 Wrote:  I noticed there was some arguments going on about the existence of him, I don't want a debate to happen but generally speaking among atheists is he believed to have exist or to not have? Why do you think he existed or didn't? Cool

I'd say it was an interesting bit of lore attached to an amalgamation of a few guys who may have existed over a few decades. Yep, clear as mud.

All the alleged attributes are fairly specific and I'm not seeing it widely referred to in many Roman texts.

I don't know if what one calls "lore", can be counted on to be truthful but, it also can't be discounted as complete fiction. A bit of both I could guess. However, it's suspect nature certainly diminishes it's relevance to history and therefore, it's relevance in my life.

Hey, I'm just trying to get through the week, at this point. Dodgy

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25-05-2016, 06:14 PM
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
(25-05-2016 05:49 PM)kim Wrote:  I don't know if what one calls "lore", can be counted on to be truthful but, it also can't be discounted as complete fiction. A bit of both I could guess. However, it's suspect nature certainly diminishes it's relevance to history and therefore, it's relevance in my life.

Hey, I'm just trying to get through the week, at this point. Dodgy

^^^^^^^^^^ about 20 more likes.

People are living their lives. Good people do good things. Bad people do bad things. Just like always.

What may have happened 2000 years ago holds no relevance to today.
It's why religion, in developed countries is on the wane.

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25-05-2016, 07:22 PM
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
(25-05-2016 02:38 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(25-05-2016 06:28 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  You want me to prove to you that their were was an early Jewish community that was expecting a spiritual messiah, to restore a spiritual kingdom, as opposed to an earthly one? That this community awaited a messiah that would die and restore the spiritual order, unlike other jews at the time who were expecting a political figure?

I would be very interested in seeing this proof. -And I hope it's not for some weird, "out there" cultist movement like the Essenes or something. That would be like me trying to claim that Christianity (as a whole, or even as a majority) follows the beliefs and values held by the Westboro Baptist Church or that Christianity is the same as Scientology because both of them use the word "church" and both have a cross as their official symbol.

I'd like to see evidence of mainstream Jews who practiced traditional Judaism and believed in a spiritual kingdom. -A few nuts living in a cave will not impress me at all.

But "A few nuts living in a cave" is all that is required to start a cult. Drinking Beverage

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25-05-2016, 09:56 PM
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
"What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?"

Don't make no never mind.
Here at TTA we worship Bob.
And Chuck Norris.

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25-05-2016, 11:55 PM
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
(25-05-2016 09:56 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  "What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?"

Don't make no never mind.
Here at TTA we worship Bob.
And Chuck Norris.

This takes me back to a quality shitthread title which I recall being something along the lines of, "Is Richard Carrier your personal historian?"

because yes, we need folks to take down our personal details or else how would we know how to send this data to the great Bob... where's your bob now?

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27-05-2016, 08:37 AM
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
(22-05-2016 10:57 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(22-05-2016 09:09 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  

Stop quoting yourself.

It's annoyingly spammy.

If I quoted myself it is because I sometimes use a kindle fire which is tricky to use on this forum.
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27-05-2016, 08:59 AM
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
(23-05-2016 04:00 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(23-05-2016 10:49 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  "Render unto Caesar" is a revolt ?

There is nothing in the gospels that leads anyone to think he intended to change anything : "For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.' Matthew 5:18

http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/2456-baptism

dot ........... dot ........... dot

This is what I've read:

Supposedly jesus came into Jerusalem on the eve of Passover, when the city was a veritable powderkeg. The powers in charge were worried about rebelling Jews.

By trashing the Jewish temple, he pissed off the priesthood. They grabbed him and sent him to the Romans.

By claiming to be King of the Jews, he was subverting Roman authority. The Romans had installed Herod(?) Or whoever, as the Jewish king. Fucking with the Romans was not a good idea.

That's my understanding.

Yes. And he gets as far as to enter the temple courts and began preaching. Whereupon he was asked by the church elders by what authority he did this. Matt:21;23. He then foxes them by asking whether they think John's baptism was from heaven or from men. In either of which care the elders look like doofuses. So they say they don't know. He was leading a poplar uprising. Philo does not mention Jesus because he wrote in an earlier time. Josephus says he existed and travelled around Judea doing good things.

There was a Jewish rabbi preaching a Helenistic Judaism to a "King" called Izates in the region a t the time http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsou...14126.html

There is ample historical information about a host of king figures and preachers upon whom Jesus could be based.
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27-05-2016, 09:36 AM (This post was last modified: 27-05-2016 02:41 PM by The Organic Chemist.)
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
(25-05-2016 02:23 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Except of course these Pauline and quasi, pauline writings, have Paul's accounts of meeting Jesus’s disciples and brothers, having an earthly parentage, crucifixion, etc..

The disputed Pauline epistles were written by people claiming to be Paul and we know nothing about them. It seems more reasonable that they were tailoring the letters to coincide with what they thought, not what they saw seeing as they were not eyewitnesses (which even Paul was not an eyewitness). You are also ignoring the "etc." here. Paul (the undisputed ones) never writes about a miraculous birth, never mentions a single miracle, says flatly that everything he "knows" is by revelation and not by witness testimony, shows contempt for John, James, and Peter, never mentions an empty tomb, never mentions anything that Acts claims he did, and never references a single teaching of Jesus. Not once. You don't even need Carrier to make these points. You just have to read the book and not cherrypick.

(25-05-2016 02:23 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  In fact in 1 Tim 6:13, Paul cites Jesus as testifying in front of Pontius Pilate.

Paul didn't write the Timothys. This is more likely an interpolation by a later author to an unsubstantiated legend. Paul never mentions anything about this in any of his authentic letters.

(25-05-2016 02:23 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Of course folks like Carrier, and his sheepies, attempt to explain these pesky points away, quite pathetically, stretching credulity, to support the bogus idea that Paul didn't believe in a historical Jesus.

Whether Carrier (haven't read his books but have watched many lectures) thinks this or not has absolutely nothing to do with whether his points are valid. You could completely omit that Paul thing and that would not change many of the points he makes. Regardless, you are still completely ignoring inconvenient things.

(25-05-2016 02:23 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote: In fact, Paul does not seem to have known of
any evidence of Jesus other than by revelation and scripture (Element 1 9,
with Chapter 1 1 ).

See above.

You are a completely ignoring a very valid point. You mentioned Timothy before but completely ignore the consensus that Paul did not write Timothy. If it is a forgery, the claims made in it can't be authenticated if we have no idea who wrote it. The fact that it agrees with you does not prove a thing.

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The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
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