What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
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17-05-2016, 06:24 AM (This post was last modified: 17-05-2016 06:28 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
(16-05-2016 04:51 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Everything I've ever read from the NT indicates that Christianity is supposed to have organically grown out of Judaism, and that this was a religion originally endorsed by educated Jews.

Maybe we've been reading different texts about Christianity. I fail to find any support for the view that Christianity was endorsed by the educated Jewish class, and that it was rejected primarily by the uneducated Jewish class. That view is likely to find very little if any support in the NT writings that's for sure, which endorses a preferential view of the poor, and the weak.

Were their educated Jews, who supported Christianity? Sure, Paul was clearly an educated Jew, but there's little reason to believe that these instances are nothing more than the exception rather than the rule. NT history includes on a considerable chasm between the early Jews and Christians, perhaps why Christianity is primarily a religion of Gentiles, such as myself.

Quote:But that's a load of shit. The NT is a rewrite of several Pagan religions and bears no resemblance to Judaism what-so-ever. Christians love to use the term "Judeo-Christian" but there is nothing Judeo about their religion at all, and there is most certainly nothing Christian about Judaism.

The NT is a lot of things, involves a great deal of syncretism, but it is a religion inspired, and built on the life, death, and teachings of a failed Jewish Messiah, and the coping of this failure by his early followers. The Christians didn't have to turn to paganism to imagine that Christ had rose from the dead, it's just that after his humiliating death, there's no place to turn but to his resurrection. A Jew will likely never understand that sort of developments would arise in the wake of a supposed messiah, because no messiah has ever arrived from them. All prospects were short lived.

But it is in all sense a religion of parallels, sharing in themes, ideas, and concepts with other religions, rather than being an isolated tribal faith. It's the sort of religion in which in less than 20 years, and 2000 years after it's conception, will see China becoming the largest Christian nation.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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17-05-2016, 06:25 AM
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
(17-05-2016 06:07 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Context my friend, it would clear up a lot for you. It's about when we have to rethink our argument, and recognize that it's likely not a good one, when we might have to go back to the drawing board, after realizing we failed to convince an audience of our own peers, that are the most receptive to that argument.

If it's such a bad argument, can't you just point out its flaws and call it a day?

Pointing out how a lot of people don't believe it to hint at it's falseness reminds me a lot of Pascal's Wager. Rather than just proving that God exists, Pascal's Wager revels in that grey area and then relies on an argument from force, hoping people miss the slight of hand.

Rather than dealing with the argument at hand, you're arguing against it with an informal logical fallacy (Aargumentum ad populum).
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17-05-2016, 06:36 AM
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
(17-05-2016 06:25 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  If it's such a bad argument, can't you just point out its flaws and call it a day?

Sure, for an atheist, a work like Ehrmans "Did Jesus Exist" should suffice.

Quote:Pointing out how a lot of people don't believe it to hint at it's falseness reminds me a lot of Pascal's Wager. Rather than just proving that God exists, Pascal's Wager revels in that grey area and then relies on an argument from force, hoping people miss the slight of hand.

Rather than dealing with the argument at hand, you're arguing against it with an informal logical fallacy (Aargumentum ad populum).

No, i'm just pointing out that an argument is likely to be quite bad, when it fails to convince the audience most receptive to it.

Now, a bad argument, doesn't necessarily mean it's not true, but a bad argument is unlikely to convince anyone that whatever you're arguing is true. If you arguments failed so miserably to convince your peers, the audience most receptive to it, you should consider going back to the drawing board, trying to reformulate it again.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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17-05-2016, 07:35 AM
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
It's less of a relevant question than did Vikings ever reproduce or have anyone maintain blood lineage in the Americas? Or did the Chinese/Polynesians ever cross to the Americas by sea fairing and reproduce.

And those are highly irrelevant but things people will study and ponder in genetic details of searching for info. It's not something there is a shred of genetic evidence to be able to detail or test for nor is there for other mysterious potential fake historical figures like King Gilgamesh or Socrates.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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17-05-2016, 11:47 AM
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
(17-05-2016 06:10 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(17-05-2016 06:07 AM)Chas Wrote:  That may be a tad strong as the first Christians were Jews. The Christians retained the holy books of Judaism while adding the incoherent Christian theology on top of it.

The Christian mind requires, however, strong compartmentalization to wall off the clanging cognitive dissonance that results from simultaneously believing in the dreadful OT God and the redemptive NT Jesus.

Would that apply to Jews who don't believe the OT God is dreadful? Which perhaps would be most observant Jews? Or just Christians.

The God character described in the OT is odious by any rational standard.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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17-05-2016, 12:17 PM
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
I believe, and has been stated before, that the idea of a "man" jesus is irrelevant if this "man" jesus didnt do the things attributed to "god-man" jesus. If the "god-man" jesus was real, it should be a lot more evident in the historical record with all the amazing things attributed to him, but we dont see anything outside of the gospels.
If this "man" jesus existed, so what? Nothing special about a failed messiah or a radical rabbi.
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18-05-2016, 11:09 AM
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
I personally separate Jesus from Christ because of one particular thing Jesus said to the Jews that their god father is the devil. So in conclusion I say that if it really is true that jesus lived he was not the Jewish messiah. But the thing that makes most of us doubt his existence is the many different stories that end up describing many different Jesuses. One thing is 100% for sure christ is an invention and jesus was never the christ or messiah of the jews. What is still uncertain is the question of his existente.
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18-05-2016, 11:16 AM
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
I believe there was a rabbi who wandered around the area teaching his philosophy. I think it was a great philosophy. It is a lor like the basic Muslim philosophy, love your neighbor, take care of the poor and the orphans and the widows etc... You can even read in the New Testament in the words that Jesus supposedly spoke that he said he was not the messiah, and not to worship him. I have often wondered why these words were never weeded out when the book was updated and retranslated or on the other hand suppressed and never paid attention to. ANyone who pretends to believe the Bible and then says that Jesus was God cannot answer why Jesus said he was not the messiah.
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18-05-2016, 11:32 AM
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
Paul is the founder of Christianity he is the liar who invented that Jesus was the son of jehova. Christianity is the new Jewish religion who follows the demiurge. It has many flaws like the Jewish religion and all other religions. In the end what maters to religious is the god they follow and all religions claim to follow the god creator of this world. I don't believe in them god creators of this imperfect world. I declare myself enemy of all evil gods.
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18-05-2016, 11:35 AM
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
I've said this a few times before on this forum and I know it's kinda stupid but it speaks to reality.....

Even if Jesus was a real guy no one back then was walking around with a piece of papyrus, a block of ink and a pen writing down everything Jesus said or did. Even Julius Caesar, who had professional scribes at his beck and call 24 hours a day, didn't have someone writing down his every word, movement and thought. Yet this is kinda what the gospel do. It's just plain stupid.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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