What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
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18-05-2016, 11:38 AM (This post was last modified: 18-05-2016 12:33 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
(17-05-2016 06:36 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  No, i'm just pointing out that an argument is likely to be quite bad, when it fails to convince the audience most receptive to it.

You never provided any evidence for that little turd. There is no evidence or poll that shows who is convinced by what, or that it's even a binary question.

Quote:Now, a bad argument, doesn't necessarily mean it's not true, but a bad argument is unlikely to convince anyone that whatever you're arguing is true. If you arguments failed so miserably to convince your peers, the audience most receptive to it, you should consider going back to the drawing board, trying to reformulate it again.

You have also never provided any support for your "so miserably" claim.
As per your usual, you pull shit out of your ass, and make claims, with no evidence.
In human history, it's only relatively recently that the entire question was even raised. People (not unlike you) just assumed the Bible was literal history. Today some people know better.

What are you doing here ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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18-05-2016, 12:02 PM
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
(18-05-2016 11:09 AM)smileyjose86 Wrote:  ...Jesus said to the Jews that their god father is the devil.

Say what? Where in any of the Gospels does Jesus say anything remotely like this?
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18-05-2016, 12:21 PM
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
(18-05-2016 11:32 AM)smileyjose86 Wrote:  Paul is the founder of Christianity he is the liar who invented that Jesus was the son of jehova. Christianity is the new Jewish religion who follows the demiurge. It has many flaws like the Jewish religion and all other religions. In the end what maters to religious is the god they follow and all religions claim to follow the god creator of this world. I don't believe in them god creators of this imperfect world. I declare myself enemy of all evil gods.

Close, but no cigar.
Paul placed his Christ figure as the latest Jewish hero, who was "exalted", in the Jewish line of those Apocalyptic heroes who were "exalted", (mistranslated as "risen").
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...other-look

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18-05-2016, 12:32 PM (This post was last modified: 18-05-2016 12:39 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
(18-05-2016 11:38 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  There is no evidence or poll that shows who is convinced by what, or that it's even a binary question.

Except of course we're sitting in a thread, gauging the general views here.

Quote:In human history, it's only relatively recently that the entire question was even raised. People (no unlike you) just assumed the Bible was literal history. Today some people know better.

No, it's isn't relatively recently that people started believing that bible wasn't literal history.

Quote:What are you doing here ?

Winning souls for the kingdom, why else?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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18-05-2016, 01:27 PM
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
(18-05-2016 12:32 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Except of course we're sitting in a thread, gauging the general views here.

Which you have never provided any evidence for, one way or another, nor any detailed examination of any evidence.

Quote:No, it's isn't relatively recently that people started believing that bible wasn't literal history.

Ok there Tommy Boy. How about you give us some facts about that. Dates, and what was questioned, by whom, and why.

Quote:Winning souls for the kingdom, why else?

Name one you won.

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18-05-2016, 03:47 PM
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
(18-05-2016 12:32 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-05-2016 11:38 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  There is no evidence or poll that shows who is convinced by what, or that it's even a binary question.

Except of course we're sitting in a thread, gauging the general views here.

Quote:In human history, it's only relatively recently that the entire question was even raised. People (no unlike you) just assumed the Bible was literal history. Today some people know better.

No, it's isn't relatively recently that people started believing that bible wasn't literal history.

Quote:What are you doing here ?

Winning souls for the kingdom, why else?
The english crown doesn't really do that anymore. I know the kingdom might of meant more to those before you but it's rather dulled now

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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18-05-2016, 05:05 PM
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
(16-05-2016 09:43 AM)Holle03 Wrote:  I noticed there was some arguments going on about the existence of him, I don't want a debate to happen but generally speaking among atheists is he believed to have exist or to not have? Why do you think he existed or didn't? Cool

WHICH Jesus?

The son of and somehow also part of a divine being, sent to humanity to preach and bring salvation etc etc?

No.

Jesus, as a mortal preacher who taught a message of... well, it's kind of hard to pin down, depends which gospel you read?

Maybe. A lot of atheists will go with this as a default.

Personally, I think there's vanishingly little reliable evidence for or against it. Pretty much everything we have... which is pretty much JUST the gospels... has been quite clearly corrupted to some degree, with a chain of custody showing more bias than a bunch of cats considering catnip and trying to decide if they like the other cats enough to share. Furthermore, there are conspicuous silences from other contemporary sources, sources that would like have some record of some of the events in the Gospels. Other sources flat either counterindicate things in the Gospels (eg the characterization of Pilate) or outright contradict them (Rome never doing a census of the sort described in the nativity story).

That said? It's easy enough to imagine a Jesus that really existed, but whose actual story was embellished to include all of these things that don't line up. So this doesn't constitute any sort of proof that Jesus didn't live... just that the Gospel depiction of Jesus is highly bastardized and unreliable.

If we reduce the Jesus story down to "there was some guy named Jesus or Yeshuah or something similar who was an itinerant preacher roughly around the 4th decade CE, and who said things roughly akin to what the Jesus in the Bible said", and ask whether THAT Jesus existed, well, two things.

First, it doesn't seem knowable either way. There were plenty of itinerant preachers, and many of them had an impact. It's possible that Jesus was one of these, or was a fiction based on the archetype, or even that elements from many of them were combined into a single figure in the Gospel. At this late date, with what little evidence still exists so thoroughly suspect, the truth is likely lost to history.

And second... I really don't care. Sure, if there was a great humanistic message being preached in that corner of the world, honor it. (In so far that it was humanistic, which is... debatable.) Honor the person who put it out there at risk to his own life as best we can... which isn't well, given how little we know. But it would be just one in a sea of humanist thinkers and luminaries, many of whom had better messages and left less of a legacy of suffering, hatred, and bigotry in their wake. Whether a historical Jesus existed doesn't matter. To learn that there were 7,238 such figures instead of 7,237... doesn't really change anything for me.
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18-05-2016, 10:52 PM
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
(18-05-2016 11:35 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  I've said this a few times before on this forum and I know it's kinda stupid but it speaks to reality.....

Even if Jesus was a real guy no one back then was walking around with a piece of papyrus, a block of ink and a pen writing down everything Jesus said or did. Even Julius Caesar, who had professional scribes at his beck and call 24 hours a day, didn't have someone writing down his every word, movement and thought. Yet this is kinda what the gospel do. It's just plain stupid.

I agree with you my friend every was written about 300 years later. It's like if you or I were to write "everything Abraham Lincoln said and did"
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19-05-2016, 03:53 PM
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
(16-05-2016 09:43 AM)Holle03 Wrote:  I noticed there was some arguments going on about the existence of him, I don't want a debate to happen but generally speaking among atheists is he believed to have exist or to not have? Why do you think he existed or didn't? Cool

I think that the Character Jesus in the Bible is based on a real person yes. Belief is the degree of acceptance of a proposition as true and it ranges from extremely tentative to near certain. I would put my belief that a real person is the basis of the Character in the Bible stories at around 8. I would put my belief that the Jesus of the Bible existed, as the son of God with Supernatural origins at 0. I don't even consider such a thing to be possible. I'm certain that the Jesus portrayed in the Bible is a legend.

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22-05-2016, 09:08 PM
RE: What is the general opinion on the existence of Jesus?
It's possible to read the New Testament fairly factually as the story ofo a leader of a revolt who had converted to a peaceful religion and challenged the Abrahamic leaders and Rome. The problem with this however is that the Romans had control of the area so what we now know about the Near East has been edited by them.

It's also politically incorrect to say anything which challenges modern day orthodoxy which you find represented here by Bucky Ball.
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