Poll: What's Jesus about?
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Based on real people and events to create a religion
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What is the more likely explanation of Jesus?
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03-05-2014, 09:49 PM
RE: What is the more likely explanation of Jesus?
(03-05-2014 09:39 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(03-05-2014 09:23 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  but yet you would have Christians respect the wishes of homosexuals even if they think it nonsense for two men to marry and be afforded all of the benefits that come with it.

You would have others respect you and your wishes even if they thought it nonsense, but you do not respect those whose views you deem nonsense.

Advocacy of a double standard is common to people who think like you. Take the time to actually think through what you are saying before you say it.

No one is telling you to be gay. What they do is none of your fucking business.

There is a double standard - I don't demand that you respect my ideas, but you demand I respect yours.

You are the guilty party.
I think it goes all ways. The only moral way to treat one's fellow man is to maximize the atheist homosexual's ability to marry another willing atheist homosexual and live their own lives as atheist homosexuals to the greatest extent possible. At the same time maximizing the christian priest's ability to be celibate and live their own life as a christian priest to the greatest extent possible. At the same time maximizing the ability of three willing mormon women and a mormon man to marry and live their lives as mormons to the greatest extent possible. If a muslim wants to live their life and a muslim in accordance with sharia law, and voluntarily submit themselves to the judgment of sharia law for violating it, I think we should maximize the ability of that muslim to do so.

Where I have a problem is when person A starts trying to tell person B that person B is living their life wrong and person A should be able to interfere or limit person B. Admittedly, there are times when that is not possible, like when person B wants to kill person A and person A doesn't want to be killed, but most stuff we debate like gay marriage and the like doesn't fall into that category.
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03-05-2014, 09:50 PM
RE: What is the more likely explanation of Jesus?
(03-05-2014 09:44 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(03-05-2014 09:28 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You seem to be unable to discriminate between "ignorant opinion" and "an informed position".

Merely labeling your views "informed positions" does nothing for the one who deems them ignorant opinions.

You have just labeled them the way you perceive them to be.

"My views are right because they are informed positions" can be said by anyone pal. Merely stating that your views are somehow right and mine are wrong means nothing.

It is like saying spaghetti is tasty and pizza is nasty.

They would be *if* I could not back them up. In fact I can, with reasonable support. There is no reasonable support for the bigoted views of religionists against gays, and not one good reason to oppose their having equal rights. The biggoted views stem from ignorance of science AND the culture that produced the Bible.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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03-05-2014, 09:51 PM
RE: What is the more likely explanation of Jesus?
(03-05-2014 09:47 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Yeah, except bucky's opinions are informed by facts (which are objectively verifiable pieces of informations); while all you have is presupposition, conjecture, and feelings.

Go fuck yourself you ignorant fool. Drinking Beverage

The same Bucky that said that "The Ontology of Belief" was a word salad.....


yea....his opinions are informed by facts....Facepalm
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03-05-2014, 09:52 PM
RE: What is the more likely explanation of Jesus?
(03-05-2014 09:47 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(03-05-2014 09:37 PM)djhall Wrote:  If I may ask a similar question in return, what would you do if you were presented absolutely conclusive evidence that the god of fundamentalist islam, the version that approves of and rewards the acts of the 9/11 hijackers, those that stone women to death for adultery, that behead infidels, that marries off 9 year old girls to old men against their will, forces women to wear beekeeper outfits, forbids alcohol, etc. IS the real thing, the true creator, and that is his vision for mankind?

What would you do? I can't imagine how that would screw with everything a "loving Christian god" believer understands about god and the world....

I would not worship this god you speak of.
Interesting. Does that mean you are a believer in god that also accepts the conclusion that ultimately man must judge god and find him worthy or not worthy? I don't come across many believers willing to acknowledge the possibility of man judging god as well as god judging man.
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03-05-2014, 10:06 PM (This post was last modified: 03-05-2014 10:10 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: What is the more likely explanation of Jesus?
(03-05-2014 09:51 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(03-05-2014 09:47 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Yeah, except bucky's opinions are informed by facts (which are objectively verifiable pieces of informations); while all you have is presupposition, conjecture, and feelings.

Go fuck yourself you ignorant fool. Drinking Beverage

The same Bucky that said that "The Ontology of Belief" was a word salad.....


yea....his opinions are informed by facts....Facepalm

The very same. BTW which YOU never refuted, nor even attempted to define.
I never said it was "word salad". I said the phrase was meaningless.
Keep lying for Jebus. He loves you. Maybe even in a gay way. Weeping
Everyone just happened to notice you provided no "facts.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/200...122106.htm
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...rah?page=2 (post 19)
But I have no facts. Facepalm

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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03-05-2014, 10:12 PM
RE: What is the more likely explanation of Jesus?
Outside of the bible, There is no real evidence that insists that he ever existed. Nothing on his childhood, no artifacts, no historian evidence. No nothing.

The only thing that exists is the Turin shroud and that was faked and we have proof of that now.
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03-05-2014, 10:21 PM
RE: What is the more likely explanation of Jesus?
(03-05-2014 09:52 PM)djhall Wrote:  
(03-05-2014 09:47 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  I would not worship this god you speak of.
Interesting. Does that mean you are a believer in god that also accepts the conclusion that ultimately man must judge god and find him worthy or not worthy? I don't come across many believers willing to acknowledge the possibility of man judging god as well as god judging man.

I believe God allows us to make our own judgment as to whether He is worthy of worship.

I believe this with all my heart. Thumbsup

And I believe that when we make the determination, He respects our decision, whatever that decision is. For it can only be one of two possibilities. He is either worthy of worship or He is not.
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03-05-2014, 10:35 PM
RE: What is the more likely explanation of Jesus?
(03-05-2014 06:36 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(03-05-2014 05:28 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I've read the bible...all of it....not just neatly packaged snippets. Have you?

That is not what I signified.

What I signified was this:

You make moral judgments about a person i.e. that a person should not be cruel or that rape is wrong.

Words like "should" or "wrong" relate to concepts like moral obligations or values.

My question therefore is what are you basing your moral judgments on?

Is it your opinion?

Or are you saying that the God of the bible has actually broken some law somewhere that no one should break?

"what are you basing your moral judgments on?"

Humanist values and secular law

"Is it your opinion?"

My opinion happens to agree with humanist values and secular law

"are you saying that the God of the bible has actually broken some law somewhere that no one should break?"

Yes.
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03-05-2014, 10:54 PM
RE: What is the more likely explanation of Jesus?
(03-05-2014 07:25 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  
(03-05-2014 07:08 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  I am aware that you cannot rationally defend your usage of the word "evil" without positing a moral law giver unless you use it to signify an opinion. As I said before, if this is the case, I say thank you for sharing it.

Take your self-righteous tone and blow it out your Godhole.

Morality is defined by people, not the invisible parent without whom you would not be able to comprehend morality or behave ethically, unlike those who can tell right from wrong and choose their behavior according to their own morality, and not how hard Sky Daddy is going to beat the with his Sky Belt when he gets home from work for acting immorally. Don't project your need for a set of instructions like "don't murder, steal, or bone your neighbor's wife" because of an inner psychosis on your part where you cannot percieve other human beings as people with equal wants and needs to your own.

And before you cry "victim" and cry crocodile tears over how you're being spoken to, realize this is composed with more respect than your child-beating, rape apologist fear-cult and personal faux pious condescension deserve.

Your mythological God banished the devil for his prideful ways, and yet you sit here announcing your own moral superiority because you have a set of rules you follow out of fear of punishment, not out of any concept of right or wrong?

Don't lecture on morality when you don't even know what it is, or where it comes from, without a 10-item cheat sheet and the same ethical principles society has been founded on for thousands of years before your violent fear cult rose to power.

Here's a simple definition your simple, Cliffs Notes of Morality amoral mind requires:

Evil: those actions that profoundly reduce or destroy happiness for large numbers of people.

Good: those actions that profoundly increase happiness for large numbers of people.

Take your presuppositional bullshit, throw some salt and chili powder on it, dump in some fresh julienned Jalapeños, douse it in Frank's Red Hot, and shove it back in your colon where it belongs: Because secular people are tired of you Presuppositional lobotomy patients "Putting that Shit on Everything" and claiming you define the moral good, when you can't even confront the moral evils Christianity has been responsible for, let alone explain it, without destroying your bullshit Presuppositional position.

[Image: morality.jpg]

Beautiful post!
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03-05-2014, 11:02 PM
RE: What is the more likely explanation of Jesus?
(03-05-2014 10:21 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(03-05-2014 09:52 PM)djhall Wrote:  Interesting. Does that mean you are a believer in god that also accepts the conclusion that ultimately man must judge god and find him worthy or not worthy? I don't come across many believers willing to acknowledge the possibility of man judging god as well as god judging man.

I believe God allows us to make our own judgment as to whether He is worthy of worship.

I believe this with all my heart. Thumbsup

And I believe that when we make the determination, He respects our decision, whatever that decision is. For it can only be one of two possibilities. He is either worthy of worship or He is not.
I keep having more questions simply because it is so interesting and uncommon to be able to exchange thoughts without argument or defensiveness with someone about their deeply held beliefs in god.

So, when you read something like the story of Lot's wife, here we have a commandment from god to not look back. It doesn't say she was a horrible awful person that really deserved it already and the defiant act of deliberately looking back was just the final straw that sealed her fate. It doesn't even say she looked back with intentional defiance. Potentially, she may even have had a momentary distraction thinking of all the people being killed in the city and glanced back instinctively before she even consciously realized what she was doing. So god turned her into a pillar of salt...

If we judge god's worthiness, what are we to think of examples like this? Did an omnipotent god not realize anyone might find the punishment vastly excessive for the offense and just forget to elaborate on Lot's wife's sins? Is the bible not a completely accurate medium for god's more nuanced message? Is Sodom and Gomorrah and Lot's wife actually and allegorical tale rather than a literal event?

If we take it as an accurate description of literal events, I only see two possible conclusions. God killed Lot's wife in punishment for her transgression, but granted her forgiveness and acceptance to heaven where she was reunited with Lot and their children for all eternity and god assumes we all understand that and it goes without saying (which in itself would be a fairly interesting comment on the omnipotence of god). Alternatively, God killed Lot's wife without any chance for repentance, denied her forgiveness and entrance to heaven, and probably is also punishing her with an eternity of torment in hell, for the very minor and very disproportional transgression of glancing back while fleeing his extermination of two cities full of people, and god has no problem advertizing this as an example to all without any further clarification. This behavior is even more disturbing in light of the prospect that this very same god is apparently quite willing to forgive serial rapist-killers, spare them punishment for their horrific sins, and accept them into the blessings of heaven if they simply repent and accept him as their lord and savior before they die.

The implications of even this one story are frightening for what they imply about the nature of the god of the bible. How does one of faith, who also accepts the need to determine if he is worthy of worship or not, reconcile the biblical stories of god's history with their apparently contradictory claims of god's love and goodness and justice?
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