What is the perfect government?
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29-07-2013, 02:00 AM
RE: What is the perfect government?
LH has this political issue all correct. I couldn't possibly agree more. Muffs, you are drunk, go home.

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29-07-2013, 02:17 AM
RE: What is the perfect government?
(29-07-2013 02:00 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  LH has this political issue all correct. I couldn't possibly agree more. Muffs, you are drunk, go home.

DL, you don't believe there should be a government. If anyone is drunk, it's you.
I'll call you a taxi. Thumbsup

I'm sure Logica knows more on this particular issue then I. I am going off how it works here (which is that it works perfectly here, helped by the media that keeps dodgy politicians that spring up in check). Though we don't have the corporations here to the degree that you guys have them.



The issue of course then brings to light, well if corporations can no longer donate without being known, then there is no incentive to donate to everyone, but instead to only donate to which politicians align with their views. (as opposed to say donating to the left wing guy that's gonna win, as a way to "bribe him"). This could result in right wing, aka Republicans, getting a lot more donations then Democratic or other left wing parties/independents.
Though I think this is easily fair exchange for not "bribing" politicians.

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29-07-2013, 02:53 AM
RE: What is the perfect government?
First off, I do believe in government, I think you are confusing me with someone else. I have stated this many times, but you keep confusing me with someone else, perhaps bbeljefe. I dunno. I have said that government is evil, but a necessary one, perhaps you mistook that for anarchy? Whatever the case is, being a believer in government I certainly want a good election system.

You're mistaken on the corporatism an lobbying that goes on. It goes on to some degree in NZ as well I'm sure, but with America still being a economic powerhouse it is far worse here. Corporations don't want to remain anonymous, they want to make money. Some corporations are more ethical than others, don't get me wrong, but corporations in general don't really give a shit who is in office, they just want laws passed in their favor. This might mean reducing restrictions, or giving them an unfair advantage over their rivals, or whatever. It isn't a republican caused problem, nor a democrat caused problem. Transparency is better. At least then you know who is fucking you. Whatever the case, corporations aren't people, and donating money and taking congressmen out to fancy dinners is a bad policy. Powerful corporations win, which usually means the people lose.

Go home muffs, you're drunk.

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29-07-2013, 04:11 AM
RE: What is the perfect government?
I think the primary problem with EVERY government is the human element. A democracy isn't flawless because the people have to be fully informed, but most of us don't do any research beyond what we see on major news outlets or whatever's trending on facebook.

(24-07-2013 02:18 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Dictatorship with the right Dictator is the best form of government.
However considering good dictators are hard to come by and nobody is willing to give me a country to govern I guess we will have to stick with what we have.

It's not just that we can't find a "good" dictator. That is part of it, but it's also that most people don't want to be told what they can and cannot do. (I know I don't.) Many people really don't know what will benefit them the most, either. Hell, most people don't understand how Wal-Mart negatively affects a community. They only care that they paid 2 cents less than they did everywhere else.

Both sides of the equation fuck up a dictatorship.

(24-07-2013 03:36 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Why not? If the parties don't know who made the contributions they can't give favors. Either that or all Donations are completely public and go into 1 huge fund that everyone draws out of (regardless of party) whatever is in the fund is what you have to spend no exceptions.

Because a political party is made up of honest people who would never lie about whether or not they know where their funding comes from? Pffft.

I think it should be the exact opposite - complete transparency. Anyone who donates to a party should be REQUIRED to make themselves known so we know whose hands are in which party's pockets.

Although, I feel that financial lobbies are the biggest problem with the American election system. 75 years ago, "lobbying" was considered bribing, and a candidate would've likely lost an election for accepting the money. Nowadays, they would NEVER get elected without these bribes.

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29-07-2013, 05:31 AM (This post was last modified: 29-07-2013 06:37 AM by Free Thought.)
RE: What is the perfect government?
(24-07-2013 12:52 AM)Thammuz Wrote:  "Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time"

Sir Winston Churchill



Apart from the fact that Chuchill could be considered a war criminal for his leading role in several heinous acts during WWII, I tend to agree that democracy is the best form of government, though severely flawed. the main question of this thread is: what would make a democracy better?

Elements to discuss would be:
-The need for a presidential system, hereditary monarchy and others
-Do we need an election threshold? 1% 2% 5% 10%?
-Is a 'first past the post'-system fair?
-Should we ban certain political parties or ideologies? Think about the Muslim brothers or the Khmer Rouge. What laws or standards should be applicable to ban a party?
-Bicameral systems or not?
-Do we need a powerful executive?
-Can we include hereditary peers?
-Direct or indirect elections?
-Is there a need for political parties? can't we just choose people?
-What about election funds? More money accesses more media attention
-Should we allow everyone to vote? Former convicts? Legal aliens? Uneducated people? religious fanatics? How and who should decide this?
-Is plural voting fair? Should well educated, prominent people have more to say in the voting booth than uneducated ones? Where would you draw the line?
-Many more...


I'd be happy to hear your thoughts. only one rule: Explain why. It's okay to have an opinion, but it's more interesting to talk about the reasoning behind it.

In my humble opinion; there is no "perfect government", and probably never will be one.

I just think people are in general too self/group-seeking for little to no regulation governments to work, see it everyday in politics, the behaviour, I'd bet, would not change.
And nobody really want to living an a place with loads of heavy regulations either. Gotta be free to be an individual.

We just have to work with what we got and try to benefit as many groups of people as possible with decisions made. Preferably made by individuals who have the merit to be leaders, not by those with the cash to by their positions...

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29-07-2013, 06:20 AM
RE: What is the perfect government?
(29-07-2013 02:53 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  First off, I do believe in government, I think you are confusing me with someone else. I have stated this many times, but you keep confusing me with someone else, perhaps bbeljefe. I dunno. I have said that government is evil, but a necessary one, perhaps you mistook that for anarchy? Whatever the case is, being a believer in government I certainly want a good election system.

You have yet to demonstrate how government is an evil. I like government. Government is good. It is what keeps social animals united.

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29-07-2013, 01:00 PM
RE: What is the perfect government?
(29-07-2013 06:20 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(29-07-2013 02:53 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  First off, I do believe in government, I think you are confusing me with someone else. I have stated this many times, but you keep confusing me with someone else, perhaps bbeljefe. I dunno. I have said that government is evil, but a necessary one, perhaps you mistook that for anarchy? Whatever the case is, being a believer in government I certainly want a good election system.

You have yet to demonstrate how government is an evil. I like government. Government is good. It is what keeps social animals united.

It's really quite simple. Ultimately, a government relies on coercion, force. That is where the evil comes in. I don't like government, but I believe it is better than than anarchy in practice.

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29-07-2013, 01:05 PM
RE: What is the perfect government?
(29-07-2013 01:00 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  It's really quite simple. Ultimately, a government relies on coercion, force. That is where the evil comes in. I don't like government, but I believe it is better than than anarchy in practice.

It is a social contract. We agree to it. If we don't like it, we can leave. Why are you so afraid to recognize order and structure as a good thing?

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29-07-2013, 01:18 PM
RE: What is the perfect government?
(29-07-2013 01:00 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(29-07-2013 06:20 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  You have yet to demonstrate how government is an evil. I like government. Government is good. It is what keeps social animals united.

It's really quite simple. Ultimately, a government relies on coercion, force. That is where the evil comes in. I don't like government, but I believe it is better than than anarchy in practice.

It's really quite simple. Ultimately, a government relies on the consent of the governed. There is no evil in that. I like government, and I believe it is better than than anarchy in every way.

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29-07-2013, 01:26 PM
RE: What is the perfect government?
Government refers to the means by which groups of human beings come to and carry out group decisions. Humans being social animals, this is rather inevitable. It is no more evil than the sunrise.

It is likewise inevitably coercive. This may rest on the capacity for physical force; it may not. In any case it is a restriction on the individual for the benefit of the group.

There is no such thing as pure anarchy.

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