What is the role of a government?
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23-03-2012, 03:48 AM
RE: What is the role of a government?
(23-03-2012 03:12 AM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(23-03-2012 03:08 AM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  Well that particular pic DOES have a context. It was the cause of a national outrage for a while. But without going into that, the fact that the protesters are sitting down, defenseless and doing nothing, is enough to justify being outraged by the use of pepper spray. I don't care if you're sitting in the last handicapped parking spot and Stephen Hawking, Hellen Keller, and Franklin Roosevelt all carpooled and are circling the lot... non-violent action NEVER merits violent reaction. And spraying a painful burning chemical in people's eyes qualifies as a violent action.

People protest in "illegal" spots because that's the whole point; to be noticed. Picketing in the bathroom of a Barnes n Noble isn't going to get you the reaction you were hoping for.

There are plenty of legal ways to protest. Once you have an illegal protest you lose all your credibility. You also give whoever you are protesting against plenty of ammunition to write you off as a reckless mob.

We had this debate in this latitudes a few years ago, short story: there's no true answer.

In my opinion, when things get out of control one has to go meta to see if this things are lawful or not. It doesn't matter if the protest violates or not some right or whatever, when things are really fucked up, what counts is if it works, not if it's fair, as when things are like that there's nor fair option.

Some will say I'm wrong and that may be so, but I can tell you, sometimes is not about being fair, or having the high moral ground, is about making politicians to fear the anger of the people, to make them remember that no matter how many cops, how many weapons or how much money they have, the people will die to get them. And I can tell you, in that situation, there's nothing better than to see the fear in a politician's eyes

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23-03-2012, 03:48 AM (This post was last modified: 23-03-2012 03:56 AM by Buddy Christ.)
RE: What is the role of a government?
(23-03-2012 03:12 AM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(23-03-2012 03:08 AM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  Well that particular pic DOES have a context. It was the cause of a national outrage for a while. But without going into that, the fact that the protesters are sitting down, defenseless and doing nothing, is enough to justify being outraged by the use of pepper spray. I don't care if you're sitting in the last handicapped parking spot and Stephen Hawking, Hellen Keller, and Franklin Roosevelt all carpooled and are circling the lot... non-violent action NEVER merits violent reaction. And spraying a painful burning chemical in people's eyes qualifies as a violent action.

People protest in "illegal" spots because that's the whole point; to be noticed. Picketing in the bathroom of a Barnes n Noble isn't going to get you the reaction you were hoping for.

There are plenty of legal ways to protest. Once you have an illegal protest you lose all your credibility. You also give whoever you are protesting against plenty of ammunition to write you off as a reckless mob.


If the protest was deemed illegal, why not act accordingly and arrest the protesters? When someone gets pulled over for driving erratically and is deemed drunk, the cop doesn't pull out mace and spray him in the face, he arrests him. So why the change in protocol here? You are allowed your right to protest and your right to shout whatever the fuck you want, so they're protected on that aspect. And if it's decided that the protesters are "blocking an emergency lane" or "loitering" then give them a fine or arrest them. It's not like they're going anywhere, you have plenty of time to enforce these penalties.

Again, I don't care to talk about the Occupy movement, I just want to address police abusing their power against technically peaceful citizens.




As long as they're arresting the actual people doing the illegal things, and not just random people...




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23-03-2012, 07:50 AM
RE: What is the role of a government?
(23-03-2012 03:12 AM)Hughsie Wrote:  There are plenty of legal ways to protest.

Not so many as there used to be. Keep tightening the rules and removing the protesters farther behind walls and fences... then "kettle" them and pepper-spray them and kick them in the ribs... There are plenty of illegal police actions, too, which never get prosecuted or remedied. (Yes, i know. Eight months later, one officer out of the thirty is reprimanded, suspended for a month with full pay. Meanwhile, the unwitting bystander is still in jail.) Legal means nothing. Law changes according to who is in power.

Quote:Once you have an illegal protest you lose all your credibility. You also give whoever you are protesting against plenty of ammunition to write you off as a reckless mob.

...until there are enough of you that credibility is no longer in question. Then, you own the guillotines and make the laws.

One more role of government: Ffs, try to refrain from pissing off the population past the point of pacifying.

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23-03-2012, 08:46 AM (This post was last modified: 23-03-2012 08:47 AM by Hughsie.)
RE: What is the role of a government?
(23-03-2012 07:50 AM)Peterkin Wrote:  ...until there are enough of you that credibility is no longer in question. Then, you own the guillotines and make the laws.

One more role of government: Ffs, try to refrain from pissing off the population past the point of pacifying.

Then you have anarchy and you have paved the way for every single person who doesn't like the system to do them same.

That's what I don't understand with all this anti-Government stuff about people rising up and taking control (like in the Middle East). Once you do it you are basically legitimising the concept of people violently overthrowing the establishment if they don't like it.

There's no objective source of knowledge on stuff like this, it's all subjective.

If you say that it's OK to overthrow a Government simply because you disagree with them then anyone can, for any reason.
Just gonna say something that no-one will agree with me on here but I honestly do think it.

One of the biggest roles of Government is to keep the voter, media, and general public away from politics and decision making as much as possible. And thank God they do.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
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Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
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Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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23-03-2012, 12:28 PM
RE: What is the role of a government?
(23-03-2012 08:46 AM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(23-03-2012 07:50 AM)Peterkin Wrote:  ...until there are enough of you that credibility is no longer in question. Then, you own the guillotines and make the laws.

One more role of government: Ffs, try to refrain from pissing off the population past the point of pacifying.

Then you have anarchy and you have paved the way for every single person who doesn't like the system to do them same.

That's what I don't understand with all this anti-Government stuff about people rising up and taking control (like in the Middle East). Once you do it you are basically legitimising the concept of people violently overthrowing the establishment if they don't like it.

There's no objective source of knowledge on stuff like this, it's all subjective.

If you say that it's OK to overthrow a Government simply because you disagree with them then anyone can, for any reason.
Just gonna say something that no-one will agree with me on here but I honestly do think it.

One of the biggest roles of Government is to keep the voter, media, and general public away from politics and decision making as much as possible. And thank God they do.

So you prefer a monarchy/aristocracy to a democracy, if you look into it, there's no way one single person garners enough popularity to overthrown a government unless that government is too messed up. The right to protest is a complementary right to voting, in the same way people get to elect their representative through voting, they get to take them down by protesting in extreme circumstances (when there's not time to waste to wait their governing time is over).

But you have to understand that there always be some idiot that want to overthrown any government, but only when the government is doing things really bad is when people will actually do it.

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23-03-2012, 12:31 PM
RE: What is the role of a government?
(23-03-2012 08:46 AM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(23-03-2012 07:50 AM)Peterkin Wrote:  ...until there are enough of you that credibility is no longer in question. Then, you own the guillotines and make the laws.

One more role of government: Ffs, try to refrain from pissing off the population past the point of pacifying.

Then you have anarchy and you have paved the way for every single person who doesn't like the system to do them same.

That's what I don't understand with all this anti-Government stuff about people rising up and taking control (like in the Middle East). Once you do it you are basically legitimising the concept of people violently overthrowing the establishment if they don't like it.

There's no objective source of knowledge on stuff like this, it's all subjective.

If you say that it's OK to overthrow a Government simply because you disagree with them then anyone can, for any reason.
Just gonna say something that no-one will agree with me on here but I honestly do think it.

One of the biggest roles of Government is to keep the voter, media, and general public away from politics and decision making as much as possible. And thank God they do.

Slippery slope much?

'Illegal' protest to overthrowing the govt to anarchy.
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23-03-2012, 12:32 PM
RE: What is the role of a government?
(23-03-2012 12:28 PM)nach_in Wrote:  So you prefer a monarchy/aristocracy to a democracy, if you look into it, there's no way one single person garners enough popularity to overthrown a government unless that government is too messed up. The right to protest is a complementary right to voting, in the same way people get to elect their representative through voting, they get to take them down by protesting in extreme circumstances (when there's not time to waste to wait their governing time is over).

But you have to understand that there always be some idiot that want to overthrown any government, but only when the government is doing things really bad is when people will actually do it.

The people generally don't have a clue.

With a well coordinated PR campaign you can convince the public to back anything. Just because you can convince people doesn't mean the cause it legitimate, it just means you are good with words and have charisma.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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23-03-2012, 12:45 PM
RE: What is the role of a government?
(23-03-2012 12:32 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(23-03-2012 12:28 PM)nach_in Wrote:  So you prefer a monarchy/aristocracy to a democracy, if you look into it, there's no way one single person garners enough popularity to overthrown a government unless that government is too messed up. The right to protest is a complementary right to voting, in the same way people get to elect their representative through voting, they get to take them down by protesting in extreme circumstances (when there's not time to waste to wait their governing time is over).

But you have to understand that there always be some idiot that want to overthrown any government, but only when the government is doing things really bad is when people will actually do it.

The people generally don't have a clue.

With a well coordinated PR campaign you can convince the public to back anything. Just because you can convince people doesn't mean the cause it legitimate, it just means you are good with words and have charisma.

yes, but there are a few basic things nobody can: that they have a job, they can get a house, they can eat everyday, they can send their children to a good school, that everything is perfect.

a lot of people are stupid, but not so much they can be lied to in the face, no amount of propaganda can feed a hungry child, at that point things start to get violent

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17-04-2012, 04:42 AM
RE: What is the role of a government?
(17-03-2012 11:23 PM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  -Fire and police departments. Personally, I don't need a police force to "defend me." I am a 230 pound man with a gun. I am perfectly capable of protecting myself. And as far as fire, there are more volunteer fire fighters than paid fire fighters in my home town. If we actually cared about each other, we would put out our neighbor's house fire.

That is what George Zimmerman said.

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17-04-2012, 02:38 PM
RE: What is the role of a government?
(17-04-2012 04:42 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(17-03-2012 11:23 PM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  -Fire and police departments. Personally, I don't need a police force to "defend me." I am a 230 pound man with a gun. I am perfectly capable of protecting myself. And as far as fire, there are more volunteer fire fighters than paid fire fighters in my home town. If we actually cared about each other, we would put out our neighbor's house fire.

That is what George Zimmerman said.

Yes but I'm not a racist, patrolling my gated community looking for "suspiciously dark" people.

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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