What is the simplest analogy to show "faith" of existence is illogical?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
18-12-2011, 09:36 PM
What is the simplest analogy to show "faith" of existence is illogical?
For the stubborn debaters that I have verbally sparred with, I've come to find they insist that I need to prove to them that god doesn't exist.

I've of course tried to explain that as I am not making a claim of existence, I'm not required to prove anything. They don't listen. So I thought of this example here:

"Suppose the following scenarios.

You are holding an apple. You ask me to believe that you are indeed holding an apple. This is the first scenario.

Next, you are holding in your hand nothing that I can see, touch, smell, hear, taste, or sense in any way whatsoever. You ask me to believe you are holding an apple.

Taking the two scenarios above, in the first, I can irrefutably prove that you are holding an apple. Using the five senses, I can ask you look at the apple, I can ask you to touch the apple (which you already are), I can ask you to smell the apple, and I can ask you to taste the apple (granted, you can't really hear an apple). I can build experiments using the scientific method that can be repeated, and can be challenged at any time.

In the second scenario, how am I supposed to believe you are holding an apple?"

Is this logical? Or could it do with improvement?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes LiquidSolstice's post
19-12-2011, 09:55 AM (This post was last modified: 19-12-2011 10:09 AM by Malleus.)
RE: What is the simplest analogy to show "faith" of existence is illogical?
It's logical, but not irrefutable. They will answer that god cannot be experienced like you experience an apple. It's beyond our material touch.

A better approach is to show them an empty hand and to make them prove that you *don't* have an apple there.

I can't see it.
It's invisible.

I can't touch it.
It's immaterial.

I can't smell or taste it.
You have to really really really believe that I have an apple here to be able to smell or taste it. Look, I can taste it. Mmmmm, delicious! If they try as hard as they can to believe to no result, they still had unconscious disbelief in that apple. They never truly believed it.

If you can't disprove something as simple as an apple just because it's immaterial and invisible, despite the fact that you actually know what an apple is, how large it is, where it is and all, how am I supposed to disprove your god? Not to mention that if I want to sell you my apple, it's my job to convince you that it exists, not yours to pay me and then disprove it to get your money back.

Yeah, good idea. Make them buy your invisible apple. Insist that they do. Market it properly and don't stop until they pay for it.

Oh, no Hallucinations 4:11 says the 'gilded sheep should be stewed in rat blood' but Morons 5:16 contradicts it. (Chas)

I would never shake a baby unless the recipe requires it.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 12 users Like Malleus's post
19-12-2011, 10:15 AM
RE: What is the simplest analogy to show "faith" of existence is illogical?
First off, let me just say that the forum skin needs to be upgraded so it shows the full title of a thread. The title of this one was presented as "What is the simplest anal." I thought maybe I had wondered onto the wrong website.

Anyways, I like Malleus' approach. However, the true believer will no doubt brush it off since a hypothetical invisible and immaterial apple cannot compare with God, who is outside of space and time. Even really, really smart people suffer from compartmentalization. This is where emotions inhibit the logical processes of the brain. Again, these people are not stupid at all, just drunk on feelings. It's hard to change someone's mind when they have already come to a conclusion. I've known people like this who claimed that atheists were close-minded.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-12-2011, 10:29 AM
RE: What is the simplest analogy to show "faith" of existence is illogical?
NO!!! I Insist that my apple is real, not imaginary. I have a basket-full and I will stop breathing until you people buy every single one of them.

Oh, no Hallucinations 4:11 says the 'gilded sheep should be stewed in rat blood' but Morons 5:16 contradicts it. (Chas)

I would never shake a baby unless the recipe requires it.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-12-2011, 04:36 PM
RE: What is the simplest analogy to show "faith" of existence is illogical?
I like to just draw the analogy to other religions. You can't believe them all, and you can't come to a belief by simply disproving all but one... because it's not "simple".

Bertrand Russell already came up with a good analogy with his "celestial teapot", and I think it's better to draw an analogy to something that your opponent is also quick to agree doesn't exist. Your opponent is likely to say "yes, but that person could be holding an apple even if I don't believe it". Get them to see your side of it by giving them an example that puts them in your position, the disbelieving position.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-12-2011, 05:06 PM
RE: What is the simplest analogy to show "faith" of existence is illogical?
I think Starcrash is on the right track. Go with a modified version of Russell's Teapot.

Maybe say something like this to your theist friends:


Suppose I said to you, "Inside a secret cave on Mars there's a pink polar bear with green stripes--and he has two heads."

You would say, "That's nonsense."

But suppose I came back with, "Oh yeah? Prove I'm wrong! Prove that the bear doesn't exist! See? You can't do it! So I win."

What would you say to such an argument? Wouldn't you say that the burden of proof is on me to demonstrate that the bear exists, not on you to demonstrate that it doesn't?

It's the same thing with God. If you're making claims about the existence of a supernatural being, you're the one who needs to prove he exists. The burden of proof is not on me to show that he doesn't.

Religious disputes are like arguments in a madhouse over which inmate really is Napoleon.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 5 users Like cufflink's post
20-12-2011, 07:46 AM
RE: What is the simplest analogy to show "faith" of existence is illogical?
(19-12-2011 09:55 AM)Malleus Wrote:  It's logical, but not irrefutable. They will answer that god cannot be experienced like you experience an apple. It's beyond our material touch.

A better approach is to show them an empty hand and to make them prove that you *don't* have an apple there.

I can't see it.
It's invisible.

I can't touch it.
It's immaterial.

I can't smell or taste it.
You have to really really really believe that I have an apple here to be able to smell or taste it. Look, I can taste it. Mmmmm, delicious! If they try as hard as they can to believe to no result, they still had unconscious disbelief in that apple. They never truly believed it.

If you can't disprove something as simple as an apple just because it's immaterial and invisible, despite the fact that you actually know what an apple is, how large it is, where it is and all, how am I supposed to disprove your god? Not to mention that if I want to sell you my apple, it's my job to convince you that it exists, not yours to pay me and then disprove it to get your money back.

Yeah, good idea. Make them buy your invisible apple. Insist that they do. Market it properly and don't stop until they pay for it.

I like this one. Smile
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-12-2011, 01:54 PM
RE: What is the simplest analogy to show "faith" of existence is illogical?
The Bible. That's all the "proof" they will ever need. How many debates end with "The Bible says . . . "

How much easier would it be if that damn book was never written.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes free2011's post
20-12-2011, 05:38 PM (This post was last modified: 20-12-2011 05:41 PM by Organon.)
Shocked RE: What is the simplest analogy to show "faith" of existence is illogical?
(19-12-2011 10:29 AM)Malleus Wrote:  NO!!! I Insist that my apple is real, not imaginary. I have a basket-full and I will stop breathing until you people buy every single one of them.

Sell the benefits of what your apple will do for its purchaser. Once a purchaser believes in your apples, then you just won't be able to supply people fast enough. Tell them your apples will give them immortality, cleanse their bodies of all impurities (sins). Arrange a few miracle cures from eating your apples and you're on the way to success.

Just think, you could have a warehouse in every suburb, in every city in countries across the World in which to store your invisible apples and welcome people in to sing songs of praise, bow down before them, etc . Statues of apples being juiced or cut into slices as vicarious atonement would complete the scene.

Have a communion, where people eat the flesh and drink the blood of the apples, (small pieces of Mom's apple pie and freshly squeezed apple juice).

You could build an International empire in time. Smile

"To think of what the world has suffered from superstition, from religion, from the worship of beast and stone and god, is
almost enough to make one insane."

Robert G. Ingersoll
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Organon's post
20-12-2011, 07:36 PM
RE: What is the simplest analogy to show "faith" of existence is illogical?
(20-12-2011 01:54 PM)free2011 Wrote:  The Bible. That's all the "proof" they will ever need. How many debates end with "The Bible says . . . "

How much easier would it be if that damn book was never written.

We could burn all the Bibles.Dodgy Hell, that's what they expect us to do.Tongue

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Chas's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: