What is the simplest analogy to show "faith" of existence is illogical?
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21-12-2011, 09:21 AM
RE: What is the simplest analogy to show "faith" of existence is illogical?
Hey, Liquid.

The teapot analogy is garbage. Just sayin'.

You're absolutely correct that you don't have to prove God doesn't exist to believe he doesn't exist and that you require proof in God before you'll believe someone who is telling you that God exists (or that they're holding an invisible apple); however, you're being asked to prove that God doesn't exist when you tell a Theist that they should believe that God doesn't exist. At that point, you need to offer proof (which of course is impossible) because you're asking them to believe your assertion. It's a different story if your assertion is that no one should believe anything that has not been proven because if you argue that and win that argument (which still isn't a scientific argument, but at least it's the root argument) then the logical conclusion is that this person can no longer believe in God. But again, not everyone believes that, so you've got your work cut out for you there too.

People believe different things for different reasons. You might be convinced that God doesn't exist, but someone else might think, "Hey, sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know 'cause I wouldn't eat the filthy motherfucker." If you want someone to take a bite out of what you're selling, well, you have to sell it first. And no one ever sold a damn thing by citing "should" or "aughta".

Anyhoo, your apple analogy is perfectly logical; however, it's not absolute. The answer to your question is, "you have to have faith." You might feel that faith itself is illogical, but it is an actual force that exists. People have faith. It can't be wished away and its effect on belief has to be accepted for what it is. You'll never sell someone by telling them that they're wrong. So put that coffee down, because coffee's for closers Tongue

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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21-12-2011, 02:29 PM
RE: What is the simplest analogy to show "faith" of existence is illogical?
(21-12-2011 09:21 AM)Ghost Wrote:  The teapot analogy is garbage. Just sayin'.

While you're "just sayin", why don't you "just say" why? Opinions are welcome here, but calling someone else's point "garbage" is offensive. It would at least be comforting to know that it's not garbage just because you're above it all and declare it to be so.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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21-12-2011, 03:32 PM
RE: What is the simplest analogy to show "faith" of existence is illogical?
(21-12-2011 09:21 AM)Ghost Wrote:  You're absolutely correct that you don't have to prove God doesn't exist to believe he doesn't exist and that you require proof in God before you'll believe someone who is telling you that God exists (or that they're holding an invisible apple); however, you're being asked to prove that God doesn't exist when you tell a Theist that they should believe that God doesn't exist.

This sentence made my head hurt Sad

What you're saying is that if I as an atheist aggressively try to convert you as a Christian (for the purposes of argument, I do not assume anything re your faith) then it's up to me to *prove* that polar bears on Mars, or invisible apples, or Russell's teapot do not exist?

Well, I'd like to say that atheists don't do that sort of thing, but of course they do and I even think it's a good thing - without Dawkins et al a lot of us would still be lost.

But I think you're wrong. All I have to do is point out the supreme improbability of these things and let you draw your own conclusions. In the long run no one but you can change your mind.

Many Christians (and those of other faiths) feel the need to aggressively assert the validity of their beliefs. These are the ones who now have the task of proving that the martian polar bears and invisible apples *do* at least have a high probability of existence. "Burden of proof" is on them.
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21-12-2011, 06:08 PM (This post was last modified: 21-12-2011 06:10 PM by houseofcantor.)
RE: What is the simplest analogy to show "faith" of existence is illogical?
Shoot them in the head. You ask for simple, I give you simple. You're just making shit complicated. Big Grin
(21-12-2011 02:29 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(21-12-2011 09:21 AM)Ghost Wrote:  The teapot analogy is garbage. Just sayin'.

While you're "just sayin", why don't you "just say" why? Opinions are welcome here, but calling someone else's point "garbage" is offensive. It would at least be comforting to know that it's not garbage just because you're above it all and declare it to be so.

Doesn't offend me. I've been listening to Garbage all day. Maybe I should get offended...Tongue

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21-12-2011, 08:02 PM
RE: What is the simplest analogy to show "faith" of existence is illogical?
(21-12-2011 06:08 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Shoot them in the head. You ask for simple, I give you simple. You're just making shit complicated.

What HoC is asking is why you even bother to debate metaphysics with children. ... Ain't much point to it.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
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Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
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22-12-2011, 05:42 AM
RE: What is the simplest analogy to show "faith" of existence is illogical?
(21-12-2011 08:02 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(21-12-2011 06:08 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Shoot them in the head. You ask for simple, I give you simple. You're just making shit complicated.

What HoC is asking is why you even bother to debate metaphysics with children. ... Ain't much point to it.

Really...? I could have sworn... To me it reads like "shoot them in the head". Is there a dictionary for this?

Oh, no Hallucinations 4:11 says the 'gilded sheep should be stewed in rat blood' but Morons 5:16 contradicts it. (Chas)

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22-12-2011, 09:42 AM
RE: What is the simplest analogy to show "faith" of existence is illogical?
Hey, Starcrash.

I've railed against it many times before and didn't think a rehash was needed. Woot, woot, woot, red alert! All hands to rehash stations!

God cannot be proven or disproven because there can never be any empirical evidence of the supernatural. Empirical evidence is measurable and those measurements rely on the forces (gravity, weak force...) and the rules (math, physics, chemistry...) of the natural universe. Because the supernatural is beyond (super) the natural, it cannot be measured using the natural; hence no empirical evidence. No empirical evidence, no science.

The teapot is different. It is absolutely measurable. We can focus telescopes. We know from entropy that teapots do not spontaneously form. As a result, it would have had to be put there by humans. Space launches and their inventories are well documented, so we can examine those documents. Someone might say that it was put there secretly by the CIA in 1972. OK. We can investigate that. Point is, empirical evidence of the existence of the teapot can be collected. So the comparison to God and the teapot is garbage. Just sayin'.

Now from the perspective that if you tell me there's a teapot there, it's for you to prove, not me, that's fine if we're interested in absolute truth. I am not. I can recognise that you believe there is a teapot there. I don't have to believe there is one just because you told me. Generally speaking, I agree that if someone makes a claim, it’s for them to prove and for you to believe or disbelieve. The reason I think the teapot is garbage is because the teapot CAN be proven/disproven while God cannot be, so it’s a bad analogy.

Sup, MDog?

If the assertion is that the burden of proof is on he that makes the assertion, then yes, if you tell someone they're wrong, they have every right to demand proof.

If you point out the improbability of God and that convinces a Theist to convert, more power to ya. But that has nothing to do with their requests for proof. That request is perfectly logical.

You're correct. If a Christian tells you that you have to be saved through Christ, you have every right to demand proof. What's good for the goose...

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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22-12-2011, 03:17 PM
RE: What is the simplest analogy to show "faith" of existence is illogical?
Ah, now I get where you're coming from. So if the assertion was that it was an invisible teapot then all would be well and it would be a good analogy?

I actually think it's good as it stands. Possibly not an exact analogy to the God debate, but it's more a parable to show the absurdity...

Um... could you, though, point out to me a situation when it is reasonable for a theist to ask me for proof in a debate? And proof of what? 'Cos I mean... proofs per se are hard... that's why we mostly deal in probabilities... For the purposes of answering the question you may assume that I am the most troglodyte atheist who ever lived, steeped in ad hominems and fallacious argument.
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22-12-2011, 06:42 PM (This post was last modified: 22-12-2011 07:12 PM by Organon.)
RE: What is the simplest analogy to show "faith" of existence is illogical?
(22-12-2011 03:17 PM)morondog Wrote:  Um... could you, though, point out to me a situation when it is reasonable for a theist to ask me for proof in a debate? And proof of what? 'Cos I mean... proofs per se are hard... that's why we mostly deal in probabilities... For the purposes of answering the question you may assume that I am the most troglodyte atheist who ever lived, steeped in ad hominems and fallacious argument.

I agree with you. I'd ask "Proof of what? First describe your god to me". I think this probably makes me an ignostic. I've never believed in a god, so I can't describe what I believe any god to be. I've seen statues of gods, but they all look like humans!

But the truth is, I cannot not believe in something something unless I know what the something is. I have no idea what a theist believes their god or gods to be. I have never had a theist give me a satisfactory definition of what they actually believe their god to be. Most of them can say what characteristics their god has, but they are always human characteristics and doesn't actually describe WHAT their god is! To me it's also nonsensical to believe that supernatural beings would have human characteristics. Why wouldn't they have the characteristics of other life forms? No one has ever told me that gods bark or wag their tails or cock their legs on trees.

More fuel for the evidence that all gods were invented by humans.

The probability is that there are no supernatural entities whatsoever, gods included.

Robert Ingersoll wrote: "The notion that faith in Christ is to be rewarded by an eternity of bliss, while a dependence upon reason, observation, and experience merits everlasting pain, is too absurd for refutation, and can be relieved only by that unhappy mixture of insanity and ignorance called 'faith.'"

"To think of what the world has suffered from superstition, from religion, from the worship of beast and stone and god, is
almost enough to make one insane."

Robert G. Ingersoll
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22-12-2011, 07:00 PM
RE: What is the simplest analogy to show "faith" of existence is illogical?
(22-12-2011 05:42 AM)Malleus Wrote:  
(21-12-2011 08:02 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(21-12-2011 06:08 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Shoot them in the head. You ask for simple, I give you simple. You're just making shit complicated.

What HoC is asking is why you even bother to debate metaphysics with children. ... Ain't much point to it.

Really...? I could have sworn... To me it reads like "shoot them in the head". Is there a dictionary for this?

I am certain YHWH is mathematical concept. Sometimes I think about all the bs people start over math; gets me a little wound. Wink

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