What is the ultimate Philosophy question?
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18-09-2012, 07:02 PM
RE: What is the ultimate Philosophy question?
Have we (the universe and/or life itself) a purpose?

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18-09-2012, 09:55 PM
RE: What is the ultimate Philosophy question?
(18-09-2012 03:31 PM)nach_in Wrote:  
(18-09-2012 03:25 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  If you think, you are, and since you are, you are something, so there is something.

But how do I know that I am if I think? it's a non sequitur Tongue

Now your just being silly, but I will play along. I would consider myself pragmatic on the most part, but I can entertain most any thought if I have the capacity for it.

Let's suppose you are all in my mind. Then my response is to myself, and that seems fine and dandy to me. I talk to myself all the time (in this scenario, literally). Now, lets suppose you do exist. Well then my thoughts (or maybe your thoughts) are still valid. No matter what, something exists.Tongue

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18-09-2012, 10:07 PM (This post was last modified: 18-09-2012 10:26 PM by Dark Light.)
RE: What is the ultimate Philosophy question?
(18-09-2012 03:36 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(18-09-2012 03:07 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  "Why is there something, instead of nothing?"

(Since we know "nothing" is a cognitive construct, which does not exist in this universe), mine is :

Why do humans persist in thinking in those terms ?
ie : the question is not "why is there "something", the question is
"why is there a perceptual structure of something vs nothing in our brains", and does that perception reflect Reality ?

The English language was not designed for this type of conversation but I hope you get what I mean.

We do not know that nothing doesn't exist. The universe is expanding, so what is it expanding into? If it is expanding into something, and the universe is everything, well then....wtf!? So then, it has to be expanding into nothing, which you claim doesn't exist. Of course that begets more questions that make no sense like "How big is nothing" and, "Since we are expanding into it, is there less nothing then there once was?" Blink

If you have a new way of explaining it, using whatever terms you wish, please share. I'm sure the scientific community would love some new insight that would explain everything Drinking Beverage

'Luminon Wrote:'

That's easy. "Something" or existence is a fundamental state of the universe. There is no such thing as "nothing", or better said, there are about four very complicated scientific definitions of nothing that only some physicists and mathemathicians understand, however probably not yet observe. (See Aron Ra's recent debate with Ray Comfort on his Youtube channel, he mentions it)

"Nothing" is just a language concept to exclude things, in nature it makes no sense. Even purest vacuum is made of "something", because it has non-zero permitivity and permeability and a non-zero energy value at zero Kelvins.
We imagine there is such a thing as nothing, because our eyes see only 400 nanometer range of light.

In some atheist book there was this metaphor of cosmic burka. Let's say we wear a burka that lets us see only through a narrow gap in front of eyes. Only this burka does not reach 180 cm to our feet. It reaches kilometers below. And kilometers above the gap. These are the invisible wavelengths the universe is full of. If we saw the electro-magnetic fireworks that bombard us all the time from 'above' (another imaginary concept) we would never think of nothingness or the outer space as empty.

I personally suspect there is a natural mechanism that "recycles" all matter and energy of the universe back to the very source of fundamental existence. For many months I know about the document of BBC "Is everything we know about the universe wrong?" (or something like that) Reputedly, this document says how astronomers are puzzled by a phenomenon that seems like something is sucking up large swathes of galaxies and nebulas, like an invisible vacuum cleaner. I think it's that "dark flow" I have heard about earlier.
Sorry, I haven't been able to watch it yet, so I don't know what is it about. If you have time, it's here.
But as a reader of esoteric philosophy I am open to an idea that the universe exists in cycles, it moves in and out of partial manifestations, I'd describe it as a cycle from formless energy to "energy-less form" (heat death) and back.


As for my own ultimate philosophy question,

Will we as humanity make it? Survive this great crisis we're in and build a golden age?

The question above is actually a second in line, the first one was "What's wrong with me?" and it was answered earlier this year Smile

I also tend to think (although I am not convinced it is unbiased thinking, I do want something to continue, makes me feel infinite) that the universe is never-ending in the sense that it will continue in some form forever. I am not convinced that there is not nothingness outside the edges of our universe, that makes no sense. As I asked above, if our universe is expanding, then into what? Glad you all find this question to be an "easy one" because I sure do not.

To return the favor, I will answer your question, as it is an easy one for me. The answer is "No". You're welcome. Big Grin

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19-09-2012, 12:24 AM
RE: What is the ultimate Philosophy question?
(18-09-2012 10:07 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  I also tend to think (although I am not convinced it is unbiased thinking, I do want something to continue, makes me feel infinite) that the universe is never-ending in the sense that it will continue in some form forever. I am not convinced that there is not nothingness outside the edges of our universe, that makes no sense. As I asked above, if our universe is expanding, then into what? Glad you all find this question to be an "easy one" because I sure do not.
Well, I'm not a genius, but I know a better idea when I see it.
Our universe is expanding, but it is the space itself that is expanding. So it is well possible there is no such thing as "space" outside of the universe, there is even no "outisde". The universe may be a topologically closed shape through some additional dimensions. So theoretically, in any direction we travel, we might eventually wrap around and come to the same point, like on Moebius list or Klein bottle.

There are multiple models of the universe's shape, but this one is simpliest. I tend to frown at wasteful notions like a multiverses of countless choices splitting apart every time we decide something. And I never heard anything of parallel universes, except of those of qualitatively different matter, which AFAIK share the same space with us. Previous cyclical universes, that's more like it.

If you claim there are nuances to principles, there are no nuances to getting arrested or shot for disobeying the power.
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19-09-2012, 02:54 AM
RE: What is the ultimate Philosophy question?
(18-09-2012 10:07 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  To return the favor, I will answer your question, as it is an easy one for me. The answer is "No". You're welcome. Big Grin
I hope that's Hollywood talking out of you. Sadcryface
Btw, NEVER tell that to a devoted believer in humanism, unless you're feeling cold and need a new hat! Evil_monster
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19-09-2012, 03:38 AM
RE: What is the ultimate Philosophy question?
What is the ultimate question to life, Universe and everything else? We know the answer to be 42, but the question is what we seek.

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19-09-2012, 05:19 AM (This post was last modified: 19-09-2012 05:23 AM by Luminon.)
RE: What is the ultimate Philosophy question?
(19-09-2012 03:38 AM)Filox Wrote:  What is the ultimate question to life, Universe and everything else? We know the answer to be 42, but the question is what we seek.
Big Grin
I always thought that was a cop-out from Douglas Adams. And perhaps from Monty Python and everyone who make such a mystery out of a meaning of life. Such a cheap way out, basically not answering this important question. I mean, I get born to this life and nobody provided me with a handbook (until I found DSM IV Big Grin ). What kind of customer service is that? I'm gonna complain, where's the boss responsible for this all? Tongue

The meaning of life is....
...is anyone even interested? Drinking Beverage

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19-09-2012, 05:48 AM (This post was last modified: 19-09-2012 05:51 AM by houseofcantor.)
RE: What is the ultimate Philosophy question?
Why is not the ultimate question, why is the ultimate answer. My Gwynnies! And why Gwyneth? Hormones, probably. And why make my infatuation with her something from nothing? Cause that's what humans do. Whether from bipedal locomotion or eating fruit, this "intelligence" crap is an accident of evolution, and being a bunch of tool using monkeys, well, obviously it's a tool. To speculate on the nature of the universe and to sing of our love.

The problem with the OP is that ultimate implies final, but as long as we have someone to talk to, we're gonna make up stuff to talk about. Tongue

(18-09-2012 03:50 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  Is philosophy beneficial to society?

Apostate. Spin 'em. Big Grin

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19-09-2012, 06:15 AM
RE: What is the ultimate Philosophy question?
(18-09-2012 10:07 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  We do not know that nothing doesn't exist. The universe is expanding, so what is it expanding into? If it is expanding into something, and the universe is everything, well then....wtf!? So then, it has to be expanding into nothing, which you claim doesn't exist. Of course that begets more questions that make no sense like "How big is nothing" and, "Since we are expanding into it, is there less nothing then there once was?" Blink

If you have a new way of explaining it, using whatever terms you wish, please share. I'm sure the scientific community would love some new insight that would explain everything

Nothing does not exists in this universe. Physics knows that.
As far as "expanding into" goes, that makes no sense. Spacetime exists in this universe. There is no "into", unless spacetime is already "there". (It's llike no "before" time is meaningless). It is not "there" until spacetime expands. The answer is "we don't know (yet)", AND there may be many dimensions we are not aware of. Right now, it looks like math predicts a number of them. The fact that we live in 4 of them, makes it impossible to imagine what they are. You can't assume what makes intuitive sense to your brain reflects either the totality of, or even the majority of Reality. 99 % of this universe, right now is unknown to us, (Dark Erergy and Dark Matter). Maybe if and when we figure out if that shit is really 2 things, and what they are, *maybe* it will will give us some clues. Probably the answers will just raise more questions. There is no "ultimate" anything.

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Yeah, for verily I say unto thee, and this we know : Jebus no likey that which doth tickle thee unto thy nether regions.

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19-09-2012, 10:53 AM
RE: What is the ultimate Philosophy question?
(18-09-2012 10:07 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  The universe is expanding, so what is it expanding into? If it is expanding into something, and the universe is everything, well then....wtf!?

So then, it has to be expanding into nothing, which you claim doesn't exist. Of course that begets more questions that make no sense like "How big is nothing" and, "Since we are expanding into it, is there less nothing then there once was?" Blink
Quote:I also tend to think (although I am not convinced it is unbiased thinking, I do want something to continue, makes me feel infinite) that the universe is never-ending in the sense that it will continue in some form forever. I am not convinced that there is not nothingness outside the edges of our universe, that makes no sense. As I asked above, if our universe is expanding, then into what?

You're just thinking of the expanding part in a way that doesn't work.

I guess you could just say it's expanding into itself.

Or think of it like this: Have you every played any of the GTA games where you could swim away from the island (I think San Andreas would be the one)? When you reach a certain point you can swim and swim and swim and swim--at whatever point after that, it almost feels like you're swimming forward but you're not really going anywhere-- there you go.

Both of the latter questions don't make any sense, because our universe doesn't have to be expanding into anything. Think of swimming in GTA again. You're not swimming anywhere, because there isn't anywhere left to swim. It might feel like you're swimming into a wall, stuck in a "stationary" position, but it's a wall that you never hit, and it still feels like you're moving forward. At a certain point, it might even seem like you are moving backwards, but you're not moving into anything.

Our universe doesn't have to be everything. Also, asking what our universe expands into, aside from not making sense, is not the same as asking what's beyond our universe. I think in asking that, you are asking a question similar to the one of what happens after you die; that question is obviously, and in the easiest way, answered by what happens before you are born. Studying the origins of our universe, beyond just the big bang, will likely give you the answer. Philosophical "nothing" and the "nothing" physicists study are different. What it is that our universe, or any universe(s), can come into existence from is what we are talking about. It would be wrong to assume our universe is expanding into that, however.

Even if it was, like in GTA, it's likely that you'll die in the game or turn off the game before you reach that point anyway; that's because you'll never reach that point. You're better off asking yourself what's for dinner.

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“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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