What is the ultimate Philosophy question?
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19-09-2012, 03:06 PM
What is the ultimate Philosophy question?
Is there another universe within which we could find all our socks that have been lost in the wash?

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19-09-2012, 03:12 PM
RE: What is the ultimate Philosophy question?
(19-09-2012 03:06 PM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  Is there another universe within which we could find all our socks that have been lost in the wash?

It's the fucking dryer. If it ain't under the lint trap, it got sucked in the wheel; take the back off. Glad I could help. Thumbsup

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19-09-2012, 03:17 PM
RE: What is the ultimate Philosophy question?
(19-09-2012 02:49 PM)Vosur Wrote:  [Image: has_anynoe.jpg]
Unsure
I might disagree, but I don't know what it means. Blink

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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19-09-2012, 03:35 PM
RE: What is the ultimate Philosophy question?
Wait. I retract my above remark. I've just received a report from a soul with more caffeine in the soul than myself. Wink

I need to get crackin'. Drinking Beverage

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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20-09-2012, 01:12 AM
RE: What is the ultimate Philosophy question?
(19-09-2012 05:19 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(19-09-2012 03:38 AM)Filox Wrote:  What is the ultimate question to life, Universe and everything else? We know the answer to be 42, but the question is what we seek.
Big Grin
I always thought that was a cop-out from Douglas Adams. And perhaps from Monty Python and everyone who make such a mystery out of a meaning of life. Such a cheap way out, basically not answering this important question. I mean, I get born to this life and nobody provided me with a handbook (until I found DSM IV Big Grin ). What kind of customer service is that? I'm gonna complain, where's the boss responsible for this all? Tongue

The meaning of life is....
...is anyone even interested? Drinking Beverage

What do you mean a cop-out? Douglas Adams was fair enough to give us the answer to the ultimate question. It is 42. The problem with the question is of a different matter. But the ANSWER is there, no cop-out here...

Big Grin

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20-09-2012, 04:00 AM (This post was last modified: 20-09-2012 04:11 AM by Luminon.)
RE: What is the ultimate Philosophy question?
(20-09-2012 01:12 AM)Filox Wrote:  What do you mean a cop-out? Douglas Adams was fair enough to give us the answer to the ultimate question. It is 42. The problem with the question is of a different matter. But the ANSWER is there, no cop-out here...

Big Grin
I mean, his answer is not only untestable, it's useless. It doesn't give you any insight or control in life, you're left to develop your own worldview through trial and error like all other amateurs at life. Always a diletant at the art of living. You wouldn't make stupid jokes about a driver's or pilot's trials, so why the meaning of life? See how many people live an unsatisfactory lives or fall outright into some common traps like solving middle age crisis by a red sports car with a hooker in it.

Some people (most of skeptics actually) believe there is no meaning in life, because we aren't born with it, it isn't natural. That's the same bullshit like saying life is pointless because it's not eternal. Some wiser ones say we get to make our own meaning. But they never tell how, because they have no idea. At most, they have some idea what their personal meaning of life is, but not how others should go at it objectively.
There are many beautiful and valuable things that exist only because we create them, they're artificial, like all the art and technology. They don't grow in nature, but they're nonetheless awesome. Meaning of life is just like that, where is the science or study of the art of living? Scientific method of designing meanings of life, increasing quality of life and meaningful achievements? Where is the basic reading, courses, FAQs, experts, journals, conferences and workshops? Are we modern people so ignorant about such an important thing?

I'm all for jokes and fun, but there are things I take seriously and maybe I'm a little fanatical about some things. Douglas Adams just didn't have the wisdom, so his message is "There's no meaning, just do whatever you do". Which I find not so different from the religious mindset "men are not meant to know anything, don't even try to study science, it doesn't work".
OTOH, I think Terry Prattchet wrote much about the nature and meaning of life, he prove that it is real and knowable. His books are fun too, but there's a lot of insight. Similar insight into life as I found in sci-fi books of the Strugatski brothers. Maybe I'm not a wellspring of ideas by myself, but I always know good ideas when I see them.

OK, so if you need introduction, the basic axiom of the art of living is this.
The meaning of life is to develop your individual potential while co-existing harmoniously with other people and the environment.
(no number 42 in there, Douglas Adams was wrong)
That's two things you need to do at the same time, find out your potential and develop it, but make sure it doesn't harm others and the planet. If possible, it should build or support existing useful social frameworks. OTOH, harmonious existence is an active process that requires participation in society and interaction with others, preventing and resolving conflicts. If you just isolate yourself, the world will come and bite you right in the ass, because shit will happen out of negligence, maybe people will fear and hate you because they don't get to know you. There is definitely a kind of collective responsibility, not collective guilt, but we reap consequences of our ancestors and whole world, so we need to act and think globally, or shit will fall on us regardless. So here's why I don't think much about individualistic philosophers like Ayn Rand or free enterprise capitalists. Nothing is free, everything is interconnected and that's a good thing.
We need to start with ourselves, know ourselves. Know our strengths and virtues and also weaknesses, vices and empty areas that need developing (and how). It's not navel gazing or self-obsession, it's the study of how to best navigate your person for the benefit for self and other people around. Once the process is well underway, it's good to turn the attention outwards again for the most part, of course.
Of course, the very first thing we need to live correctly is an adequate supply of the right food, adequate housing and shelter for all, healthcare and education as universal rights. So this art of living must include economic and political principles, you see it's an extremely broad field of study, broad as the life itself and needs a broad mind to grasp.

All the best and timeless art follows some laws or rules. So what are the laws of life? They certainly aren't anything new or revolutionary. But actually writing them down, researching, teaching and practicing them, that is indeed revolutionary. Next time you go shopping for a new invention of technology, ask yourself where's the Life mk. II. When people tell me to get a life, I tell them I wait for the new version Big Grin

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20-09-2012, 06:43 AM
RE: What is the ultimate Philosophy question?
(20-09-2012 04:00 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(20-09-2012 01:12 AM)Filox Wrote:  What do you mean a cop-out? Douglas Adams was fair enough to give us the answer to the ultimate question. It is 42. The problem with the question is of a different matter. But the ANSWER is there, no cop-out here...

Big Grin
I mean, his answer is not only untestable, it's useless. It doesn't give you any insight or control in life, you're left to develop your own worldview through trial and error like all other amateurs at life. Always a diletant at the art of living. You wouldn't make stupid jokes about a driver's or pilot's trials, so why the meaning of life? See how many people live an unsatisfactory lives or fall outright into some common traps like solving middle age crisis by a red sports car with a hooker in it.

Some people (most of skeptics actually) believe there is no meaning in life, because we aren't born with it, it isn't natural. That's the same bullshit like saying life is pointless because it's not eternal. Some wiser ones say we get to make our own meaning. But they never tell how, because they have no idea. At most, they have some idea what their personal meaning of life is, but not how others should go at it objectively.
There are many beautiful and valuable things that exist only because we create them, they're artificial, like all the art and technology. They don't grow in nature, but they're nonetheless awesome. Meaning of life is just like that, where is the science or study of the art of living? Scientific method of designing meanings of life, increasing quality of life and meaningful achievements? Where is the basic reading, courses, FAQs, experts, journals, conferences and workshops? Are we modern people so ignorant about such an important thing?

I'm all for jokes and fun, but there are things I take seriously and maybe I'm a little fanatical about some things. Douglas Adams just didn't have the wisdom, so his message is "There's no meaning, just do whatever you do". Which I find not so different from the religious mindset "men are not meant to know anything, don't even try to study science, it doesn't work".
OTOH, I think Terry Prattchet wrote much about the nature and meaning of life, he prove that it is real and knowable. His books are fun too, but there's a lot of insight. Similar insight into life as I found in sci-fi books of the Strugatski brothers. Maybe I'm not a wellspring of ideas by myself, but I always know good ideas when I see them.

OK, so if you need introduction, the basic axiom of the art of living is this.
The meaning of life is to develop your individual potential while co-existing harmoniously with other people and the environment.
(no number 42 in there, Douglas Adams was wrong)
That's two things you need to do at the same time, find out your potential and develop it, but make sure it doesn't harm others and the planet. If possible, it should build or support existing useful social frameworks. OTOH, harmonious existence is an active process that requires participation in society and interaction with others, preventing and resolving conflicts. If you just isolate yourself, the world will come and bite you right in the ass, because shit will happen out of negligence, maybe people will fear and hate you because they don't get to know you. There is definitely a kind of collective responsibility, not collective guilt, but we reap consequences of our ancestors and whole world, so we need to act and think globally, or shit will fall on us regardless. So here's why I don't think much about individualistic philosophers like Ayn Rand or free enterprise capitalists. Nothing is free, everything is interconnected and that's a good thing.
We need to start with ourselves, know ourselves. Know our strengths and virtues and also weaknesses, vices and empty areas that need developing (and how). It's not navel gazing or self-obsession, it's the study of how to best navigate your person for the benefit for self and other people around. Once the process is well underway, it's good to turn the attention outwards again for the most part, of course.
Of course, the very first thing we need to live correctly is an adequate supply of the right food, adequate housing and shelter for all, healthcare and education as universal rights. So this art of living must include economic and political principles, you see it's an extremely broad field of study, broad as the life itself and needs a broad mind to grasp.

All the best and timeless art follows some laws or rules. So what are the laws of life? They certainly aren't anything new or revolutionary. But actually writing them down, researching, teaching and practicing them, that is indeed revolutionary. Next time you go shopping for a new invention of technology, ask yourself where's the Life mk. II. When people tell me to get a life, I tell them I wait for the new version Big Grin

I'm sorry to break it to you but Adams wasn't wrong, you didn't get the idea, 42 is no the meaning of life, is the answer to the ultimate question of life the universe and everything.

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20-09-2012, 07:01 AM
RE: What is the ultimate Philosophy question?
(20-09-2012 04:00 AM)Luminon Wrote:  OK, so if you need introduction, the basic axiom of the art of living is this.
The meaning of life is to develop your individual potential while co-existing harmoniously with other people and the environment.
...which is, much like anyone else claiming to know the meaning of life, nothing more than the subjective opinion of an individual. Drinking Beverage

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20-09-2012, 07:02 AM
RE: What is the ultimate Philosophy question?
(20-09-2012 04:00 AM)Luminon Wrote:  I mean, his answer is not only untestable, it's useless. It doesn't give you any insight or control in life, you're left to develop your own worldview through trial and error like all other amateurs at life.

Exactly.

Quote:Always a diletant at the art of living. You wouldn't make stupid jokes about a driver's or pilot's trials, so why the meaning of life? See how many people live an unsatisfactory lives or fall outright into some common traps like solving middle age crisis by a red sports car with a hooker in it.

Some people (most of skeptics actually) believe there is no meaning in life, because we aren't born with it, it isn't natural. That's the same bullshit like saying life is pointless because it's not eternal. Some wiser ones say we get to make our own meaning. But they never tell how, because they have no idea. At most, they have some idea what their personal meaning of life is, but not how others should go at it objectively.

The meaning for your life must come from you - no one else can tell you how. There is no formula, no objective method that others will be able to tell you.

Quote:There are many beautiful and valuable things that exist only because we create them, they're artificial, like all the art and technology.

No. We are a product on evolution, and so are all of our artifacts. Everything we do is natural because we are natural.

A beaver dam is as natural as the beavers that constructed it.

Quote:They don't grow in nature, but they're nonetheless awesome. Meaning of life is just like that, where is the science or study of the art of living? Scientific method of designing meanings of life, increasing quality of life and meaningful achievements? Where is the basic reading, courses, FAQs, experts, journals, conferences and workshops? Are we modern people so ignorant about such an important thing?

The course is called 'Life'. Live and pay attention, your meaning will emerge.

Quote:I'm all for jokes and fun, but there are things I take seriously and maybe I'm a little fanatical about some things. Douglas Adams just didn't have the wisdom, so his message is "There's no meaning, just do whatever you do". Which I find not so different from the religious mindset "men are not meant to know anything, don't even try to study science, it doesn't work".

No, his message was that we have to make our own meaning.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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20-09-2012, 07:34 AM
RE: What is the ultimate Philosophy question?
(20-09-2012 04:00 AM)Luminon Wrote:  ... or fall outright into some common traps like solving middle age crisis by a red sports car with a hooker in it.

Speak for yourself, dude. One person's trap is another person's raison d'etre!

(20-09-2012 07:02 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(20-09-2012 04:00 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Some wiser ones say we get to make our own meaning. But they never tell how, because they have no idea. At most, they have some idea what their personal meaning of life is, but not how others should go at it objectively.
The meaning for your life must come from you - no one else can tell you how. There is no formula, no objective method that others will be able to tell you.

Sigh! I feel like I'm repeating myself but to emphasis Chas's point please see my sig below. Wisdom will out.

(20-09-2012 07:02 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(20-09-2012 04:00 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Douglas Adams just didn't have the wisdom, so his message is "There's no meaning, just do whatever you do". Which I find not so different from the religious mindset "men are not meant to know anything, don't even try to study science, it doesn't work".

No, his message was that we have to make our own meaning.

Actually, his message was in the Ultimate Question that Arthur Dent discovered once he became part of the Earth computer program...

For those readers who do not know, the Ultimate Question (for which the Ultimate Answer to Life, the Universe and Everything was 42) was "What is six times nine?"

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