What is your opinion about aliens?
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01-03-2014, 06:31 PM
RE: What is your opinion about aliens?
Is there life elsewhere in the universe? Probably. It would be the height of hubris to think we are so unique. Is such life any more capable of coming here than we are of going there? Probably not.

For that matter, assuming life were capable of evolving exactly as we have who is to say that it would be more advanced? Suppose they are a mere 5,000 years behind us? Where was man 5,000 years ago? Chipping flint into sharp edges to butcher an animal. We've had manned space flight for 60 years and can only go as far as the moon which, in galactic terms, is closer than the house next door.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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01-03-2014, 06:59 PM
RE: What is your opinion about aliens?
(01-03-2014 06:31 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  Is there life elsewhere in the universe? Probably. It would be the height of hubris to think we are so unique. Is such life any more capable of coming here than we are of going there? Probably not.

For that matter, assuming life were capable of evolving exactly as we have who is to say that it would be more advanced? Suppose they are a mere 5,000 years behind us? Where was man 5,000 years ago? Chipping flint into sharp edges to butcher an animal. We've had manned space flight for 60 years and can only go as far as the moon which, in galactic terms, is closer than the house next door.

And suppose that technologically they are 5000 years ahead of us... Some of us can't imagine our species surviving another 5000 years. 5000 years is not a long time when considering human life on earth, and a blink when considering all lifeforms.

In the last few generations we have imagined theoretical travel solutions to bridge space and time. Any of these may be realized in the next few hundred years.

Time and distances also seem less of an issue to a life form that lives a very long time. There are MANY ways in which we could live far longer than we do now... And some ways in which we could potentially live for thousands of years or even indefinitely. Our bodies can only take us so far. I can see us keeping consciousness and swapping out our known biology. One of the biggest problems is preserving continuity. A person who's brain is copied into a machine is still going to die... But a person who gradually BECOMES the machine can retain continuity.
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01-03-2014, 08:17 PM
RE: What is your opinion about aliens?
(01-03-2014 06:03 PM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  
(01-03-2014 05:31 PM)UndercoverAtheist Wrote:  Your logic can be applied to anything in order to falsify it or make it improbable, and you are simply running in circles.

Probability says that if abiogenesis has occurred once, in the way that we think it occurred, then it must have happened numerous times across the universe.

But how do I know that these evidences are actually real? How do I know that the thoughts of others that I have studied are real? If they aren't real, then they are unreliable, and if they are unreliable, then they are most certainly untruthful.

Maybe there is something special about my own mind and I create everything around me, so that if I believe there is alien life there most certainly is.

I've created a straw-man but have not attacked it, because it attacks itself just like your argument invalidates itself, by itself, and from the perspective of itself.
Perhaps you are correct.
But..
You said probability says if abiogenesis has occurs once, in the way we think it occurred, then it must have happened numerous times.....
My problem is with the word "must." How do you know this?
There are folks that say in order for the universe to exist there must be a creator. I see no difference between the two statements as there is no evidence to support either assertion!
I still haven't gotten an answer for the question;
Could we be the first and others don't exist yet? Or the last and the rest are gone?
There is also this. If probability dictates that life must occur many times I ask you what are those odds? As I asked before are they one in ten or are they one in a googolplex?
Do you know? I suspect you do not.
And by the way, my pool table analogy was a joke! That's why I typed "lol" and "seriously though." I assume this is the "logic" you are attacking because the rest of what I've stated were questions.....

Through your logic, and assuming that you believe every word that you have spoken, or, rather, typed, then there is no point in asking any question, because we simply do not know anything at all.

If you were to ask a physicist how the sun works, and he tells you that it is the process of fusion, and you asked him "how do you know?", then, he would answer that there is a multitude of evidence pointing at the fact that our sun undergoes nuclear fusion. However, there is no possible way (as of now) to definitively know whether or not the other stars within the galaxy abide by the same laws that our sun does, just as life elsewhere may not abide by the rules that have given life on Earth. Thus, the physicist would say that the other stars "MUST" abide by the laws put for by our sun and by the universe, but, he does not definitively know.

And, just as astronomers have observed and identified the sun's capabilities, many have observed the capability and the process of the origin of life on EARTH, and EARTH only, just as fusion (within stars) has been observed through OUR SUN, and OUR SUN only.

This, most importantly, is exactly how science works.

We observe something close to home, and project this observation even further into the universe, until we have a complete understanding of the processes by which the universe functions. But, could there be "cold stars"? Stars with a "negative mass"? Because, by your logic, there is no definitive way to know anything, even something as absurd as the aforementioned may be true of our universe, because there is no way to definitively know, as of now.

If I were to answer one of your questions it would also be within my obligation to provide evidence, in which case I have none, and neither do you.

Of course, every human being has their own tendencies and logic they follow in order to rationalize their belief, but in this case, there is no supernatural factor, only observable (observed once, here on Earth) justification.

The question "how do you know?" can be applied to anything, just as a five year old (don't take offense to this) can ask "why" until a full circle of knowledge has been made.

You: How do you know?
Me: I know because of _______.
You: How do you know _______?
Me: I know because I know _____ follows _____.
You: How do you know that ____ follows _____?
Me: I know because of _______.
You: How do you know?

360 Degrees of motion achieved!

The answer to this circular question is that I simply do not know the full extent of my beliefs, and neither do you, I just find it hard to believe otherwise, and, it is not as if I have not suspended judgement. I "believe" life exists elsewhere in the universe through the sheer fact of the diversity and gigantism of the universe.

The difference between my stance on life in the universe, and of a pious preacher's on God, stands in that life has already been observed by many, while god has not.
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01-03-2014, 11:17 PM (This post was last modified: 02-03-2014 12:01 AM by Drunkin Druid.)
RE: What is your opinion about aliens?
No. I don't think life can be compared to stars this way. We have a great understanding of stars and their origins but with life.. Not so much. Now before we go any more I will point out that I agree that it seems likely that life exists elsewhere. But "seems likely" is not the same as "is" or even " likely ."
I have asked you how do you know. And you answer with blank follows blank... So I will put it to you now.
1) yes life exists here. How exactly does that mean that life must exist elsewhere? Or if something has happens once why do you say it must happen again? There are likely possibilities unconsidered by both of us.
2) have you not considered the possibility (remote as it might be) that it would normally take the universe longer than it exists to produce life and that this is simply a fluke?
3) you have not addressed the idea that we might be the first or even the last. Is this not at least conceivable? (This question is asked only because they are conceivable. You do not need to provide evidence that some is conceivable. It is obviously conceivable)
I don't think we can talk about probabilities or possibilities without more information.
I'm not saying there is no life out there but I am saying that you or I do not have a deep enough understanding of life to be able to say that extraterrestrial life must exist. The assertion is unfounded and you are ignoring unknown possibilities.
No you cannot say extraterrestrial life must exist. You can only say extraterrestrial life might exist. The difference is you know for sure and that is absurd while I am left asking a question that cannot be answered given our currant state of knowledge.
You sir are claiming to know something you can not possibly know.
You do not need to provide evidence for any of the questions I've asked. You need to provide evidence for your claim.
You are correct. I have no evidence but I never made a claim.
I'm not talking about what we believe here. What we believe is irrelevant. I'm talking about what we know.
Like I have said time and time again it does seem likely that life exists but I do not know one way or the other and I am interested in only what we know! This is where a god analogy can come in. I do not believe god exists nor do I believe god doesn't exist. I simply reject any claim that anyone knows one way or the other. The same goes for alien life. I reject your claim that you know life exist. Believe what you want but you do not know.
Now I must sleep! Good night my friend!
Edited.. A great deal. Still, pretty shitty writing . Lol
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03-06-2014, 02:16 PM
RE: What is your opinion about aliens?
Life exists here. So therefore, it is possible for live to come into being on a planet.

The universe is populated with something on the order of 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets.

Either it was an extraordinary miracle that this ONE planet out of 10 sextillion planets is the only one which can support or create life,

...or...

The conditions which made it possible for life to happen here have a chance of occurring elsewhere, given that there are at least ten thousand billion billion planets in the universe for which nature can experiment on.

I find the first scenario laughable and ridiculous.

Though we might not have found obvious direct evidence of "aliens", the math leads me to believe the second scenario is not just more probable, but virtually certain.

In other words, aliens = real.

Our problem is probably just recognizing an alien when we see it. They could be so weird, or so vast or incomprehensible, invisible, or right in our faces and we wouldn't even know it because of our narrow-minded ignorance and naivete.
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04-06-2014, 12:42 AM
RE: What is your opinion about aliens?
Or their civilisations so dead we couldn't detect the remaining life without crossing an implausibly large void of space.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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04-06-2014, 01:13 AM (This post was last modified: 04-06-2014 01:20 AM by sporehux.)
RE: What is your opinion about aliens?
(03-06-2014 02:16 PM)azure Wrote:  Life exists here. So therefore, it is possible for live to come into being on a planet.

The universe is populated with something on the order of 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets.

Either it was an extraordinary miracle that this ONE planet out of 10 sextillion planets is the only one which can support or create life,

...or...

The conditions which made it possible for life to happen here have a chance of occurring elsewhere, given that there are at least ten thousand billion billion planets in the universe for which nature can experiment on.

I find the first scenario laughable and ridiculous.

Though we might not have found obvious direct evidence of "aliens", the math leads me to believe the second scenario is not just more probable, but virtually certain.

In other words, aliens = real.

Our problem is probably just recognizing an alien when we see it. They could be so weird, or so vast or incomprehensible, invisible, or right in our faces and we wouldn't even know it because of our narrow-minded ignorance and naivete.
10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets

The chance of Abiogenesis could be that number plus a few zeros, until we have a better understanding of it, claiming aliens are for sure is wishful thinking.

But interestingly if intelligent/sentient life evolving from Abiogenesis is very rare, then Abiogenesis would have to be very common.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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04-06-2014, 12:47 PM
RE: What is your opinion about aliens?
I believe there is intelgent life on planets in other solar systems. I do not believe they have visited us.
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04-06-2014, 12:50 PM
RE: What is your opinion about aliens?
depends on the opinions they have on me.

which currently dont exist.

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06-06-2014, 04:29 AM
RE: What is your opinion about aliens?
I think they should get out more. They're hardly ever seen out and about, they stay shut up out of sight all the time and this can lead to serious psychological disorders, such as a belief they're alone in the universe, or that they're some deity's special creation and have entitlements. Unless exposed to travel, a closeted mind cooks up ever wilder fantasys about its origins and purpose. It'd be a disaster if some earth space exploration party encountered them; the party would be annhilated by a panicked frenzy akin to stamping out an ember that has just set fire to the front porch. So they really do have to get out more, even if only to reduce the general element of menace.
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