What is your opinion on this kind of Deism ?
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07-07-2014, 10:33 PM
RE: What is your opinion on this kind of Deism ?
Welcome to the forum Mora. I feel that the "Atheism and theism require an equal leap of faith because one can neither prove or disprove the existence of a deity" to be a poor defense.

I find it interesting that with other supernatural stuff theists and atheists alike scoff at the idea of such things. Take something like fairies, for example. I live in the U.S., and I don't know a single person that would consider debating the existence of fairies as anything less than ridiculous. The attitude on the matter is "Why would we debate something that has no evidence and is impossible of proving or disproving? It has no evidence, so there is no reason to debate such an irrational claim!" Yet, turn it into a thing of deities, which are just as equally lacking in proof of existence as fairies are, and all of a sudden you have people who want you to treat the existence of deities as being perfectly rational.

There really is only a thin line of difference between theists and atheists:

Atheists believe that the existence of any deity is ridiculous.

Theists believe that the existence of any deity, except theirs, is ridiculous.

“Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool.” - Mark Twain
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07-07-2014, 11:08 PM
RE: What is your opinion on this kind of Deism ?
(07-07-2014 04:56 PM)Mora Wrote:  My other point that I always ask to my atheist friends is how can you deny the existence of something without supporting evidence.
....

I am a lawyer , I know that in court if you acknowledge or deny something you need proof because both are positive postilions that are really claims . And remarkable claims require remarkable evidence . Because it is different from saying I do not know and I do not care , that would be an agnostic take . or am I wrong .

Thank you for a thoughtful reply .

You are a lawyer; you understand that the plaintiff must provide evidence and prove their case to a standard burden of proof.

Have you ever filed a motion before a court saying the prosecution failed to prove their case?

You mentioned Hitch, have you ever seen the quote from him that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"?



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08-07-2014, 05:43 AM
RE: What is your opinion on this kind of Deism ?
Quote:When I stretch my thoughts , I believe in a non personal God that Caused the big bang and watched it happen .

I'm curious about how a "non personal God" "watched" anything? You seem to hold open the possibility of some unknown force beyond our universe. But do forces actually watch things happen? I don't generally think of gravity watching things fall.
As for causing the big bang, this is a common fallacy among theists, assuming a cause-and-effect along a timeline when no timeline existed. Everything within our universe happens by cause and effect along the timeline that's part of our universe. But why assume that our timeline is just a subset of an even larger timeline? Why picture our universe as if it's a russian nesting doll hidden within a larger universe of space and time just like ours?

Quote:not a separate being who lives in the sky but rather the conscious God manifested in the laws of physics .

Science has made great strides in the field of consciousness. Having read a great deal about it, it seems unlikely that there's anything supernatural about it. There is no evidence that consciousness could occur without a physical brain as a source.

I encourage you to continue thinking about and learning about these concepts if they are of interest to you.
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08-07-2014, 06:54 AM
RE: What is your opinion on this kind of Deism ?
(07-07-2014 04:56 PM)Mora Wrote:  
(07-07-2014 04:36 PM)CiderThinker Wrote:  I don't find deism particularly unreasonable - to me it's even harder to argue with a deist - not that I can think of a reason to do so - than a theist.

For me the problem comes with the 'too good' argument you use. To me it's missing the point - it's not that it's 'too good' for all the random stuff to have happened and for us to exist - more that we exist in our current form because of those events.

Random and unlikely things do happen in nature - but for a few chance happenings, different species may have evolved or survived - I don't see a reason to attach deism to it although I can see why people reach that conclusion.

I would certainly like to hear an expert argument of weather life can only evolve in similar circumstances than earth or not. If you have a video or something about it please reply it.

I'm no expert; far from it in fact, but will I do?

Hypothetically, in order for life, or rather, the pre-cursor to life, to arise, all that is needed is for the laws of chemistry to function and that there be a readily available supply of chemicals which are capable of bonding and enough time for the Laws and chemical 'soup' to begin forming chemicals which are capable of self-replicating via environmental means, which would then undergo a form of natural selection. It might be possible to alter the chemicals available, the temperature of the planet (to a certain extent), the gravity, the magnetic field etc. and still allow for a formation of life to occur, just so long as the chemicals are still available, that there is enough time allowed and that there is sufficient energy supplied to the system.
It's incredibly unlikely that you'd ever see anything even remotely similar to what is on Earth however. But it cannot be said the the universe is a thing averse to incredibly unlikely occurrences.

(07-07-2014 04:56 PM)Mora Wrote:  My other point that I always ask to my atheist friends is how can you deny the existence of something without supporting evidence. Especially that we have no frame of reference to what is God, I don't believe the silly belief of a God that sits on a chair. So really we have no frame of reference.

Asking how we can deny (or more accurately; how we can not believe) something which lacks evidence without having evidence seems to me a bit of a silly question; many of us do not believe in a deity simply because there is not a single iota of viable evidence in support of it, without evidence of said being's existence, there is no reason for us to accept it.

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08-07-2014, 08:30 AM
RE: What is your opinion on this kind of Deism ?
I am a bit confused. So, you don't believe there is a god, but you think there may be? How does that differ from an agnostic?

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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08-07-2014, 11:48 AM
RE: What is your opinion on this kind of Deism ?
(08-07-2014 08:30 AM)Dom Wrote:  I am a bit confused. So, you don't believe there is a god, but you think there may be? How does that differ from an agnostic?

As I said , Agnosticism is my refuge because I am not certain . Because I have no clear decision rather I have conflicting arguments . I might have arguments for Agnosticism which I think is the safest belief to take. But When I stretch my thoughts I can be at most a Deist .

I also used the word stretch to show how it is not build on solid arguments for me .
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08-07-2014, 12:30 PM
RE: What is your opinion on this kind of Deism ?
(07-07-2014 04:56 PM)Mora Wrote:  My other point that I always ask to my atheist friends is how can you deny the existence of something without supporting evidence .
By the same token, how can you accept the existence of something without supporting evidence?

"I don't know" is neither a denial or acceptance.

That said, without evidence to contrary, I strongly doubt any deity exists because there is no reason to believe that one does. If you find the magnificence of the universe to be so hard to accept without a creator, think about how much more magnificent a creator would have to be than anything it creates. Deism means accepting a creator exists without a creator. If you have trouble with the former (universe without a creator), how do you so easily accept the latter (creator without a creator)?

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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08-07-2014, 12:49 PM
RE: What is your opinion on this kind of Deism ?
(07-07-2014 04:56 PM)Mora Wrote:  
(07-07-2014 04:36 PM)CiderThinker Wrote:  I don't find deism particularly unreasonable - to me it's even harder to argue with a deist - not that I can think of a reason to do so - than a theist.

For me the problem comes with the 'too good' argument you use. To me it's missing the point - it's not that it's 'too good' for all the random stuff to have happened and for us to exist - more that we exist in our current form because of those events.

Random and unlikely things do happen in nature - but for a few chance happenings, different species may have evolved or survived - I don't see a reason to attach deism to it although I can see why people reach that conclusion.

Your take is quiet interesting, I have heard of a similar argument . That we see we call wisdom and order , but if we existed in completely different world , we would have still called it wisdom and order from a different perspective and a different frame of reference .

I would certainly like to hear an expert argument of weather life can only evolve in similar circumstances than earth or not . If you have a video or something about it please reply it .

My other point that I always ask to my atheist friends is how can you deny the existence of something without supporting evidence . Especially that we have no frame of reference to what is God , I don't believe the silly belief of a God that sits on a chair . So really we have no frame of reference .

Since , Christopher Hitchens is your choice for a profile image . I would like to mention that he too struggled with this question , in my opinion . I know he says he is an anti theist . But when William Lane Craig asked him in a debate , do you withhold belief in God the way an agnostic does or do you believe in no deities , he never gave a direct answer to that .

I am a lawyer , I know that in court if you acknowledge or deny something you need proof because both are positive postilions that are really claims . And remarkable claims require remarkable evidence . Because it is different from saying I do not know and I do not care , that would be an agnostic take . or am I wrong .

Thank you for a thoughtful reply .
Because you are a lawyer you may be able to answer this question. In court do I have to prove my innocence or does the crown(or perhaps state?) have to prove my guilt.
Because I'm an atheists you claim I have to prove that no gods exist but (and I've said this a hundred times) I have made no positive claim. I only deny any claim that gods exist. You have asserted that a god exist. You need to provide evidence in order to convince me.
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08-07-2014, 01:12 PM
RE: What is your opinion on this kind of Deism ?
(07-07-2014 11:08 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(07-07-2014 04:56 PM)Mora Wrote:  My other point that I always ask to my atheist friends is how can you deny the existence of something without supporting evidence.
....

I am a lawyer , I know that in court if you acknowledge or deny something you need proof because both are positive postilions that are really claims . And remarkable claims require remarkable evidence . Because it is different from saying I do not know and I do not care , that would be an agnostic take . or am I wrong .

Thank you for a thoughtful reply .

You are a lawyer; you understand that the plaintiff must provide evidence and prove their case to a standard burden of proof.

Have you ever filed a motion before a court saying the prosecution failed to prove their case?

You mentioned Hitch, have you ever seen the quote from him that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"?



Welcome to the forum.

I think that quote was by Sagan but I could be wrong. Carry on.
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08-07-2014, 02:09 PM
RE: What is your opinion on this kind of Deism ?
Having been a staunch Deist for quite some time I will say that it is a pointless endeavor. I became an atheist after trying to argue for a Deistic god. The issue was that I was well versed in science and philosophy and deluded myself for years on end with this. All Deism leads to is a shallow and fruitless frame of thought that never benefits you

Crazy you say?
Wouldn't a crazy man ask another man if he was crazy?! Hobo
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