What is your opinion on this kind of Deism ?
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08-07-2014, 02:50 PM
Re: RE: What is your opinion on this kind of Deism ?
(08-07-2014 01:12 PM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  
(07-07-2014 11:08 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  You are a lawyer; you understand that the plaintiff must provide evidence and prove their case to a standard burden of proof.

Have you ever filed a motion before a court saying the prosecution failed to prove their case?

You mentioned Hitch, have you ever seen the quote from him that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"?



Welcome to the forum.

I think that quote was by Sagan but I could be wrong. Carry on.

I think so topic, but regarding to this exact topic I also liken my position to a Carl Sagan quote and point.

His line was, "why not go one step further?" Most forms of deism literally cant be proven false, their also unprovable. It's utterly pointless to hold the position.

So why not take the step past the blank data deity and think anything it could of done, the universe/energy/matter/what have you could of done it itself.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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08-07-2014, 05:58 PM
RE: What is your opinion on this kind of Deism ?
A natural act in nature has natural causes.

If you like, I'll even steal this from Kalam.
Every natural thing that begins to exist has a natural cause.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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08-07-2014, 06:13 PM
RE: What is your opinion on this kind of Deism ?
(08-07-2014 05:58 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  A natural act in nature has natural causes.

If you like, I'll even steal this from Kalam.
Every natural thing that begins to exist has a natural cause.

Except it doesn't apply. "Begins to exist" does not apply, (as Carroll pointed out to Craig).




Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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08-07-2014, 06:51 PM
RE: What is your opinion on this kind of Deism ?
I know I know, but sometimes religious people can only understand something if its written in religious verbage.

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08-07-2014, 06:59 PM
RE: What is your opinion on this kind of Deism ?
(07-07-2014 08:28 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I think of diests as people who hold a general and nonspecific reverence for the natural universe. It is a completely harmless and benign belief system. As an atheist I think of the natural universe as apathetic and completely material, as a diest you probably see a greater expression of which we are a small part of. I see no reason why can't share much the same intellectual space. Welcome to the forums. I do hope you find answers and enjoy your stay.

It is neither benign nor harmless. It is a block to inquiry, and end to curiosity, a non-answer.

It is only benign in comparison to the malignancy that is theism. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-07-2014, 07:02 PM
RE: What is your opinion on this kind of Deism ?
The Lawyer point that keeps coming up ...

Please go back to previous replies to find my answer .

What I want to say is since in court we can let people go for because of the lack of evidence against them . They do not need an alibi if there is not enough evidence against them . But what I also want to say is that if further proof comes up , at-least in my country , the case will be reopened again .

Because absence of evidence is not evidence of absence .

What I was addressing with that is confident atheism that denies the possibility of a God. Without supporting evidence . As Einstein explains , this is missing the point , that our knowledge is so humble and so we should be . I can understand that you do not acknowledge something without supporting evidence even if we have no supporting evidence . But You should not pridefully deny the possibility . Which I see many people do not .

So where I am now is confusion between agnosticism and atheism . If agnosticism is being open to possibility without denying pridefully . Then is it the same as atheism? than that would mean that no one really denies the possibility of a God .
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08-07-2014, 07:07 PM
RE: What is your opinion on this kind of Deism ?
(07-07-2014 04:28 PM)Mora Wrote:  Lets jump straight to the point .

I quit Religion for 2 years now . I am not an Atheist in the narrow sense that it is the belief in no deities . It is funny how people imagine that you have a clear opinion , in reality I have conflicting arguments and I wanted to see your opinions on them .

Firstly , I want to say that I think my safest place is Agnosticism . Just because it is less confident than Atheism . For that same reason it angered Einstein that people called him an Atheist . When I stretch my thoughts , I believe in a non personal God that Caused the big bang and watched it happen . However , not a separate being who lives in the sky but rather the conscious God manifested in the laws of physics .

I think , there is a higher wisdom than we will ever understand that is not centered around us as human beings . But rather something above us and above our understanding . Something , like what skeptics like George Carlin believe in . Something maybe close to what Einstein and Michio Kaku believe in . That it is too good to be a random thing . Too good to the point that something as simple as a sunset can make Dawkins cry .

I do not preach , I do not promise eternal life , I am not so certain that I can not retreat . I support equal rights to women and gay people . Basically , I follow no moral guideline from a book .

Would you think it is so unreasonable to believe so ?

My opinion is that you are an agnostic atheist. You just haven't realized that because you don't yet understand the definition.

Do you know that a god exists or does not? No? You are agnostic.

Do you believe a god exists? No? You are an atheist.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-07-2014, 07:16 PM (This post was last modified: 09-07-2014 07:46 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: What is your opinion on this kind of Deism ?
(08-07-2014 07:02 PM)Mora Wrote:   Because absence of evidence is not evidence of absence .

What I was addressing with that is confident atheism that denies the possibility of a God. Without supporting evidence . As Einstein explains , this is missing the point , that our knowledge is so humble and so we should be . I can understand that you do not acknowledge something without supporting evidence even if we have no supporting evidence . But You should not pridefully deny the possibility . Which I see many people do not .

So where I am now is confusion between agnosticism and atheism . If agnosticism is being open to possibility without denying pridefully . Then is it the same as atheism? than that would mean that no one really denies the possibility of a God .

The question is : "Why is the question raised AT ALL ?" There is no coherent definition of the three letter meme pronounced "gawd". At ALL. In light of that fact, why do you feel it necessary to WASTE energy worrying about "denying" it AT ALL. Worrying about "denying" or "not denying" the gods, (none of which are reasonable, and none of which can be identified or defined in ANY reasonable manner), is the equivalent to worrying about whether a 1957 Chevy is orbiting Pluto. The question is "WHY do you think denying or not denying something that is equivalent to pink unicorns, should engage anyone at all". There is NOTHING about the question that merits even a minute of consideration, UNLESS you can define what you're talking about, and I KNOW you cannot do so. If you care to try, you'll be shot to hell in 5 seconds.

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08-07-2014, 07:22 PM (This post was last modified: 08-07-2014 07:29 PM by Mora.)
RE: What is your opinion on this kind of Deism ?
(08-07-2014 06:59 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-07-2014 08:28 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I think of diests as people who hold a general and nonspecific reverence for the natural universe. It is a completely harmless and benign belief system. As an atheist I think of the natural universe as apathetic and completely material, as a diest you probably see a greater expression of which we are a small part of. I see no reason why can't share much the same intellectual space. Welcome to the forums. I do hope you find answers and enjoy your stay.

It is neither benign nor harmless. It is a block to inquiry, and end to curiosity, a non-answer.

It is only benign in comparison to the malignancy that is theism. Drinking Beverage


I would have to disagree with you .
The God that I might believe is not the answer himself . That is in creationism which I do not believe in . The God that I give possibility to is the God that is so sophisticated and God like that everything is scientific . Some thing Einstein believes that he made everything with the set of rules that he is . Not something that breaks the laws of physics that ends curiosity . In the contrary Einstein through his holy curiosity and scientific research wanted to understand . He said "I want to know God's thoughts; the rest are details."

He also said "In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."

"I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being."
Letter to Guy H. Raner Jr. (28 September 1949), from article by Michael R. Gilmore in Skeptic magazine, Vol. 5, No. 2 (1997).


You will find the many hall mark scientists like Michio Kaku and Einstein Believed in a deist God that flamed and enraged their sense of curiosity .
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08-07-2014, 07:43 PM
RE: What is your opinion on this kind of Deism ?
(08-07-2014 07:07 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-07-2014 04:28 PM)Mora Wrote:  Lets jump straight to the point .

I quit Religion for 2 years now . I am not an Atheist in the narrow sense that it is the belief in no deities . It is funny how people imagine that you have a clear opinion , in reality I have conflicting arguments and I wanted to see your opinions on them .

Firstly , I want to say that I think my safest place is Agnosticism . Just because it is less confident than Atheism . For that same reason it angered Einstein that people called him an Atheist . When I stretch my thoughts , I believe in a non personal God that Caused the big bang and watched it happen . However , not a separate being who lives in the sky but rather the conscious God manifested in the laws of physics .

I think , there is a higher wisdom than we will ever understand that is not centered around us as human beings . But rather something above us and above our understanding . Something , like what skeptics like George Carlin believe in . Something maybe close to what Einstein and Michio Kaku believe in . That it is too good to be a random thing . Too good to the point that something as simple as a sunset can make Dawkins cry .

I do not preach , I do not promise eternal life , I am not so certain that I can not retreat . I support equal rights to women and gay people . Basically , I follow no moral guideline from a book .

Would you think it is so unreasonable to believe so ?

My opinion is that you are an agnostic atheist. You just haven't realized that because you don't yet understand the definition.

Do you know that a god exists or does not? No? You are agnostic.

Do you believe a god exists? No? You are an atheist.

I can not affirm it , but I give it a possibility . If that makes me an agnostic then agnostic I am .
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