What is your opinion on this kind of Deism ?
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09-07-2014, 06:04 PM (This post was last modified: 09-07-2014 06:12 PM by Mora.)
RE: What is your opinion on this kind of Deism ?
(08-07-2014 08:31 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(08-07-2014 07:46 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Deism is pointless. It explains nothing, it predicts nothing, and it accomplishes nothing.

I would have to disagree. It's a way to play both sides against the middle.
Ya know. Hedge yer bets.
Anything is possible ya know. You can't really know there is no teapot orbiting the sun.

Good , I can understand that , but then as a consequence , you can not say that Deism is an end to curiosity or is something that makes you less of a scientist . And If you are willing to discredit the value of opinions one of the greatest scientist that ever lived then there is no way you can ever quote his opinions in support of your views or any opinion for that matter because let's face it no one is without errors .

I had to put those quotes to prove that sometime it bugs me that people blame theism for being so confident on a limp of knowledge . Yes theism is based on the gabs of science , The necessity of a God to fill the gabs . Yet this type of atheism the confident one , is confident on a limp of knowledge . Saying there is no necessity for a God on limp of knowledge therefore there is no God , or saying that through the necessity of a God to fill the gabs there is a God meet greatly to me . As Einstein says , it misses the point of our humble , barley mentionable amount of knowledge .

The other thing that bugs me is that people , who disqualify the opinion of such a hall mark scientist often quote his opinions in support of their views or mention his name to give weight to their views .

For the teapot thing . Something that has no frame of reference is completely different . And absence of evidence is not evidence of absence especially with absolutely no frame of reference and when based on our very humble science .

I would end by saying , I think I can compromise my ideas . But the arrogance that completely misses the humility of our knowledge and existence , proves to be unwilling to compromise or acknowledge anything but itself as wise and unharmful .
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09-07-2014, 06:09 PM
RE: What is your opinion on this kind of Deism ?
(08-07-2014 07:51 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(08-07-2014 07:43 PM)Mora Wrote:  I can not affirm it , but I give it a possibility . If that makes me an agnostic then agnostic I am .

And part two? Do you have a belief that there is a god?

I can not guarantee it . But I am not willing to disqualify such thought completely .
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09-07-2014, 06:10 PM
RE: What is your opinion on this kind of Deism ?
(09-07-2014 06:09 PM)Mora Wrote:  
(08-07-2014 07:51 PM)Chas Wrote:  And part two? Do you have a belief that there is a god?

I can not guarantee it . But I am not willing to disqualify such thought completely .

Do you see any evidence for that God?
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09-07-2014, 06:17 PM
RE: What is your opinion on this kind of Deism ?
(09-07-2014 06:09 PM)Mora Wrote:  
(08-07-2014 07:51 PM)Chas Wrote:  And part two? Do you have a belief that there is a god?

I can not guarantee it . But I am not willing to disqualify such thought completely .

Let me be clearer.

Do you have a belief in god, or do you lack a belief in god?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-07-2014, 06:23 PM
RE: What is your opinion on this kind of Deism ?
(09-07-2014 06:09 PM)Mora Wrote:  
(08-07-2014 07:51 PM)Chas Wrote:  And part two? Do you have a belief that there is a god?

I can not guarantee it . But I am not willing to disqualify such thought completely .

Atheism not necessarily the disqualification of the thought that a god exist. Atheism is the lack of belief in a god.

Atheism is a provisional position, not a dogmatic one. There is no inherent claim that a god does not exist.

Belief is defined by cognitive scientists as the psychological state which one accepts a premise to be true. If you currently accept that a god exists, you are a theist. If you don't currently accept the premise that a god exists as true, you are an atheist. Belief is a binary mental state.

Agnostic is not some sort of 'middle ground' position between theism and atheism.
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09-07-2014, 06:26 PM
RE: What is your opinion on this kind of Deism ?
(09-07-2014 06:23 PM)Simon Moon Wrote:  
(09-07-2014 06:09 PM)Mora Wrote:  I can not guarantee it . But I am not willing to disqualify such thought completely .

Atheism not necessarily the disqualification of the thought that a god exist. Atheism is the lack of belief in a god.

Atheism is a provisional position, not a dogmatic one. There is no inherent claim that a god does not exist.

Belief is defined by cognitive scientists as the psychological state which one accepts a premise to be true. If you currently accept that a god exists, you are a theist. If you don't currently accept the premise that a god exists as true, you are an atheist. Belief is a binary mental state.

Agnostic is not some sort of 'middle ground' position between theism and atheism.
Clarification - no Deism is the belief in a non-intervening God - maybe better described as a higher power...
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09-07-2014, 06:27 PM
RE: What is your opinion on this kind of Deism ?
(09-07-2014 06:23 PM)Simon Moon Wrote:  
(09-07-2014 06:09 PM)Mora Wrote:  I can not guarantee it . But I am not willing to disqualify such thought completely .

Atheism not necessarily the disqualification of the thought that a god exist. Atheism is the lack of belief in a god.

Atheism is a provisional position, not a dogmatic one. There is no inherent claim that a god does not exist.

Belief is defined by cognitive scientists as the psychological state which one accepts a premise to be true. If you currently accept that a god exists, you are a theist. If you don't currently accept the premise that a god exists as true, you are an atheist. Belief is a binary mental state.

Agnostic is not some sort of 'middle ground' position between theism and atheism.

Agnostic is not some sort of 'middle ground' position between theism and atheism.

I would say I came out of this thread more agnostic than before if that is how you define it .
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09-07-2014, 06:31 PM (This post was last modified: 09-07-2014 06:49 PM by Mora.)
RE: What is your opinion on this kind of Deism ?
(09-07-2014 06:10 PM)CiderThinker Wrote:  
(09-07-2014 06:09 PM)Mora Wrote:  I can not guarantee it . But I am not willing to disqualify such thought completely .

Do you see any evidence for that God?

(09-07-2014 06:17 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-07-2014 06:09 PM)Mora Wrote:  I can not guarantee it . But I am not willing to disqualify such thought completely .

Let me be clearer.

Do you have a belief in god, or do you lack a belief in god?

Well , evidence is something too confident , then I would have to say no .
...
Well , as I said in my previous post , I came out of this thread more agnostic than before . And that is how I am willing to compromise , because truly the evidence I now think is not beyond reasonable doubt .

Thanks you both and everyone for the share of thoughts . And no hard feelings I hope .
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09-07-2014, 07:41 PM (This post was last modified: 09-07-2014 07:50 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: What is your opinion on this kind of Deism ?
(09-07-2014 06:04 PM)Mora Wrote:  Good , I can understand that , but then as a consequence , you can not say that Deism is an end to curiosity or is something that makes you less of a scientist . And If you are willing to discredit the value of opinions one of the greatest scientist that ever lived then there is no way you can ever quote his opinions in support of your views or any opinion for that matter because let's face it no one is without errors .


I can quote Einstein when he TALKS ABOUT PHYSICS and MATH. That is his field. Not Religion or Philosophy. I have never quoted him nor would I ever with respect to anything else. He is an expert in neither Religion or Philosophy. I KNOW who are the experts in Religion and Philosophy. He was not talking about science, when he was speculating about the gods. You seem to think that referencing what he said about Religion or Philosophy somehow grants to the idea of Agnosticism some validity. He was speculating about a field he was not an expert in. I can use any experts I want, who have the DATA to support their views.

I never have quoted Einstein, so you're preaching to the choir. No one here quotes him, as far as I know. So it's all a strawman you're wasting your time with, with respect to Einstein.

The teapot is EXACTLY the same thing. There is no "frame of reference" for the gods, other than your Presuppositionalism. Our science may be incomplete, but filling the gaps with any deity, (the very notion which is incoherent and undefined), is no answer to anything.

Thanks for the sermon, but you have failed to define what the word "god" means, or how the concept that flows from your definition is coherent. Obviously you NEED to maintain a god in your hip pocket as a trump card. The concept of "god" has as much meaning or value as the teapot.

So, tell us, "What EXACTLY is a *god*", and what does the word "god" refer to, EXACTLY.

Then explain how a being, which MUST participate in Reality, can be the creator of the very Reality in which it is REQUIRED to participate, for it's existence, and how that is a coherent concept.

I submit you have not considered what you are even talking about. There is no need to be "humble" about a concept that has NO COHERENT definition, (which is why I compared it to the teapot). YOU have not even tried to define what it is you're being agnostic about, yet you think it's reasonable to be agnostic about "something", you can't and won't define. That's just stupid.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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09-07-2014, 08:16 PM
RE: What is your opinion on this kind of Deism ?
Hi Mora, welcome to the forum.

I've just read the whole thread and would like to try a different angle.

I have a simple question.

If I concede that an energy/being/higher power/god or whatever you prefer to call it created the universe, then what/who created it/him/her and then following on what created it/him/her?

This question is the best way I can explain the sheer futility of deism from my point of view. I have found that most of the people I have spoken to over the years who dabble with deism have a tough time getting their head around the fact that, outside of the known universe the laws of physics and time may not apply. So they can't comprehend that the universe may have never been created, or no creator/governing intelligence was needed.

So to clarify my point that I am trying to make with my question, if your problem is you see the world as so wonderful and complex there's a high chance it was created, how complex must that creator be? And, if everything that is wonderful and complex requires a creator, which creator poofed the creator of our universe in to existence and which creator created that one, and which creator created that one, and which creator created that one, and which...

I'm sure you see my point.

One final thing mate. My point of view on the arrogance thing is this:-

Christian - I have a magical dad who created the entire universe just for me! I have dominion over all other life and can do whatever I want so long as I repent! I also claim to know how to live and will tell you how to live according to my magical dad! I have prayed to him and know what he thinks!

Atheist - There is no evidence for anything supernatural so I reject it all. If some comes along I will change my mind. Until you have evidence, please stop telling me and others how to live.

Which worldview is arrogant my friend?

Welcome to the forum and good luck with your journey! :-)

I'll just play the 'can I help you' lick!!!
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