What kind of god would you LIKE?
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18-11-2011, 04:32 PM (This post was last modified: 18-11-2011 04:37 PM by houseofcantor.)
RE: What kind of god would you LIKE?
I thought I wuz done with this thread - that's why I call my shit "the stupid brain." I got more neck! Are you surprised!Big Grin

Morality is zero-state; not only do we help each other, we hurt each other. But the implication of "hurt" is "evil;" this kind of duality needs to go the way of the dinosaur. It is merely a function of identity, and evolution provides for both. We "save ourselves and sacrifice others" merely as a function of discreteness. Cufflink, here, is "perfect in his atheism" by asking the question, rather than stating the answer.

Only an asshole thinks he knows all the answers. And here's this asshole, again... Big Grin

We are.

Simple evolution from "I am." We are the god that exists, we are the agency of avatar, we create the only future that ever will be. We are The Collective.

As popularized by the Borg of Star Trek, there is a public perception of distaste with the conception of the "hive mind." That perception is in error. What are you looking at? Words of the English language - the Hive - produced by the Mind of this avatar.

Resistance is futile.

If you don't like humanity, you best break out your home genetic engineering kit - know that whatever you create, if it is discrete, it will evolve into The Collective. It is not "the greatest story ever told;" it is merely the oldest - tao - the one to the many; but tao is not "concept of word," but rather "rhythm of number." Tongue

E Pluribus Unum

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18-11-2011, 05:10 PM
 
RE: What kind of god would you LIKE?
(18-11-2011 04:24 PM)Ghost Wrote:  I took the question to mean that the guy was saying, "OK, well if you think that God is a dick because of how he runs the joint, how would you run things better?" Like, it's easy to criticize someone but can you actually do a better job? I thought that was a really profound question and something truly apropos for a forum on Atheism. And Cufflink's initial questions seemed rooted in the real, rather than in the fantastical; that there would be real-world consequences to any changes we made.

Matt, it looks like you missed one crucial statement that I made on this thread, actually several times.

Quoting from memory: "The initial design of this world is so fundamentally flawed (because of predation) that NOT EVEN A GOD COULD FIX IT WITHOUT A COMPLETE REDESIGN!".

Translating it into our reality: we, as a species, are so fucked up that our current reality will inevitably carry us, on a straight line, to self-destruction. Most probably during this century.

All we have left for escape is fantasy, make-belief, pretending that there is a god who can save our sorry asses.

I tried to explain, in several threads, how biological evolution is going at a snail's pace, while our technology, with its related destructive power, has been shooting up exponentially. Sooner, rather than later, it will overwhelm our defenses because basic, fundamental human psychology (under the thin veneer of civilization) is no different from the caveman's, except now we have nuclear weapons and man-made climate change.

So, you see, I don't think that a god doing the same thing he has been doing will save us, neither could he protect us from destroying ourselves, regardless how benevolent and competent he was, without major redesign of his creation.

Sad, I know, but I am absolutely convinced that it is the truth. Sad
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18-11-2011, 05:16 PM (This post was last modified: 18-11-2011 05:39 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: What kind of god would you LIKE?
(17-11-2011 10:17 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, GirlyMan.

Quote:You seem to get discouraged rather quickly.

Bailing on page six isn't quick.

Nah, I was just trying to tease you back into the fray.

(17-11-2011 09:02 PM)paulesungnomo Wrote:  ... but i find it lazy and intellectually dishonest for someone to grant that it would be better, but who still eats their fellow sentient beings and uses a the 'life is life' justification to continue doing it without feeling bad.

Oooh, seems liked I pricked a nerve in a militant vegetarian who doesn't recognize my tongue in cheek. I'll respond but please realize that is my tongue in my cheek, not a carrot.

(17-11-2011 09:02 PM)paulesungnomo Wrote:  ... what we do as vegetarians is try to limit our predation to those forms of life who lack the clear and scientifically demonstrated ability to suffer. no central nervous system. no neurons. no nerves.

So it's okay to devour living things, as long as they are sufficiently different from you.

(17-11-2011 09:02 PM)paulesungnomo Wrote:  then there is ther fact that most plants that humans eat have actually evolved to be eaten and actively use the fact that we eat them to their own species benefit. strawberry seeds being coated in a substance that can protect them from mammal's stomach acid, therefore using them to spread their species through our droppings is a perfect example.

Or that you determine somehow "need" or "want" to be eaten by you. Of course if you shit in a toilet instead of a field, those strawberry seeds have no chance of germinating in the sewage treatment plant.

(17-11-2011 09:02 PM)paulesungnomo Wrote:  .... saying that a cow and a carrot (or all life) are basically the same thing is incredibly dishonest.

Dismissing that possibility out of hand is what seems incredibly intellectually dishonest to me.

(17-11-2011 09:02 PM)paulesungnomo Wrote:  if you really thought they were in the same category, you would be equally able to happily and casually slaughter a carrot and a calf... and im guessing one of those would trouble you a bit more than the other.

One of those would clearly trouble you a bit more than the other, but you're not allowed to transfer your peculiar troubles onto the rest of us. Every Fall my workplace holds a weeklong deer hunting season to thin an indigenous deer population which has grown too large for the isolated compound to support. There are no natural predators in the compound and the deer just starve to death in large portions over the Winter if they are not thinned. The weeklong hunting season was not initiated until an ecologist did a study on the number of deer carcasses found each year and determined that the resources were insufficient to support the population. Is it more humane to put them down quickly (and yes, painlessly if done by an experienced and capable hunter), or let them starve? (I personally don't hunt but I seem to have a natural talent for skinning and butchering, so many of the hunters bring their kills to me for postprocessing.)

Dammit, now I've gone and bit my tongue while pulling it out of my cheek.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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18-11-2011, 05:21 PM
 
RE: What kind of god would you LIKE?
(18-11-2011 04:32 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  As popularized by the Borg of Star Trek, there is a public perception of distaste with the conception of the "hive mind." That perception is in error. What are you looking at? Words of the English language - the Hive - produced by the Mind of this avatar.

Resistance is futile.

If you don't like humanity, you best break out your home genetic engineering kit - know that whatever you create, if it is discrete, it will evolve into The Collective. It is not "the greatest story ever told;" it is merely the oldest - tao - the one to the many; but tao is not "concept of word," but rather "rhythm of number." Tongue

Cantor, surprise, surprise -- I not only understand what you are saying in this post but I actually agree with you. However, we are running out of time very fast, as I explained above.
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18-11-2011, 05:40 PM
RE: What kind of god would you LIKE?
Quote: Zatamon:
I tried to explain, in several threads, how biological evolution is going at a snail's pace, while our technology, with its related destructive power, has been shooting up exponentially. Sooner, rather than later, it will overwhelm our defenses because basic, fundamental human psychology (under the thin veneer of civilization) is no different from the caveman's, except now we have nuclear weapons and man-made climate change.

The great irony is that we don't need a god or an alien invasion to solve our problems. We have the ability, right now, to stop hurting one another and other species, and to mitigate, if not alleviate, a great deal of the suffering inflicted by natural agents. We only lack the will. Or rather, we refuse to turn off the will to do harm.
And the reason i'm angry with all apologists for suffering is that they help keep us on the wrong track. No pain - no struggle? So bloody what? Struggle made us what are? Are we really so nearly perfect that any change must be for the worse?

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
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18-11-2011, 05:44 PM
RE: What kind of god would you LIKE?
(18-11-2011 05:16 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  ....There are no natural predators in the compound and the deer just starve to death in large portions over the Winter if they are not thinned. The weeklong hunting season was not initiated until an ecologist did a study on the number of deer carcasses found each year and determined that the resources were insufficient to support the population. Is it more humane to put them down quickly (and yes, instantly and painlessly if done by an experienced and capable hunter), or let them starve? (I personally don't hunt but I seem to have a natural talent for skinning and butchering, so many of the hunters bring their kills to me for postprocessing.)

Hey Girly you horse you....

2 thoughts... Why is the ecological condition of the deer's environ such that there are no natural predators and thus overpopulated? And the other.... uhhh... oh yes, How do you know it's less humane to let the deer freeze or starve than say, being shot in the neck or leg by a bad shot? I'm not so sure that the natural processes that have existed for a rather long time are not naturally more humane. Of course we all root for the best marksman.

peace and love and.... no, never mind..

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18-11-2011, 05:47 PM (This post was last modified: 18-11-2011 06:06 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: What kind of god would you LIKE?
(18-11-2011 05:40 PM)Peterkin Wrote:  
Quote: Zatamon:
I tried to explain, in several threads, how biological evolution is going at a snail's pace, while our technology, with its related destructive power, has been shooting up exponentially. Sooner, rather than later, it will overwhelm our defenses because basic, fundamental human psychology (under the thin veneer of civilization) is no different from the caveman's, except now we have nuclear weapons and man-made climate change.

The great irony is that we don't need a god or an alien invasion to solve our problems. We have the ability, right now, to stop hurting one another and other species, and to mitigate, if not alleviate, a great deal of the suffering inflicted by natural agents. We only lack the will. Or rather, we refuse to turn off the will to do harm.
And the reason i'm angry with all apologists for suffering is that they help keep us on the wrong track. No pain - no struggle? So bloody what? Struggle made us what are? Are we really so nearly perfect that any change must be for the worse?

I'm pretty sure we have evolved past the point of relying on evolution. The question is "Now what?" Do we use our technology to further reinforce the evolutionary imperatives which got us here? Or do we realize that it's time to let them go and move in an entirely different direction?

(18-11-2011 05:44 PM)defacto7 Wrote:  Hey Girly you horse you....

teehee ... Blush

(18-11-2011 05:44 PM)defacto7 Wrote:  2 thoughts... Why is the ecological condition of the deer's environ such that there are no natural predators and thus overpopulated?

Gated compound of some 1500 acres with guards patrolling the perimeter to keep the terrorists out.

(18-11-2011 05:44 PM)defacto7 Wrote:  And the other.... uhhh... oh yes, How do you know it's less humane to let the deer freeze or starve than say, being shot in the neck or leg by a bad shot?

I don't, and that obviously does happen.

(18-11-2011 05:44 PM)defacto7 Wrote:  I'm not so sure that the natural processes that have existed for a rather long time are not naturally more humane. Of course we all root for the best marksman.

I'm not either and yes we do all root for the best marksmen.

(18-11-2011 05:44 PM)defacto7 Wrote:  peace and love and.... no, never mind..

Right back at ya', brother. Wink

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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18-11-2011, 05:53 PM
 
RE: What kind of god would you LIKE?
(18-11-2011 05:44 PM)defacto7 Wrote:  2 thoughts... Why is the ecological condition of the deer's environ such that there are no natural predators and thus overpopulated? And the other.... uhhh... oh yes, How do you know it's less humane to let the deer freeze or starve than say, being shot in the neck or leg by a bad shot? I'm not so sure that the natural processes that have existed for a rather long time are not naturally more humane. Of course we all root for the best marksman.

Excellent points, defacto!

It is like playing chess: the player who can think the most steps ahead usually wins.

In human debate it is often the reverse: the player who can think the most steps backward (on the cause-and-effect chain) usually wins! Smile

The fight did NOT start when the other guy hit back!

(18-11-2011 05:47 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I'm pretty sure we have evolved past the point of relying on evolution. The question is "Now what?" Do we use our technology to further reinforce the evolutionary imperatives which got us here? Or do we realize that it's time to let them go and move in an entirely different direction?

Problem with that, GirlyMan, is that we have to use our caveman-brains (psychologically speaking) before we can move in any direction, and our caveman-brains tell us:

KILL! PLUNDER! RAPE!

Once that very thin veneer of civilization is gone (under pressure of hunger, fear and hate), then there is no stopping human brutality.

Every war fought is an example. Rwanda, Yugoslavia, Chechnya, Middle and Far East -- almost an endless list of what humans are capable of when the pressure reaches boiling point.

Try to tell it to a god to fix this without removing predation from the design. Rolleyes
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18-11-2011, 06:25 PM
RE: What kind of god would you LIKE?
(18-11-2011 05:21 PM)Zatamon Wrote:  Cantor, surprise, surprise -- I not only understand what you are saying in this post but I actually agree with you. However, we are running out of time very fast, as I explained above.

That too is evolution - it's K-T time; but I ain't going to no mount and preach no sermon. As I live I love humanity; if humanity cannot love itself, the count will continue in another form. Wink

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18-11-2011, 06:32 PM
RE: What kind of god would you LIKE?
(18-11-2011 05:53 PM)Zatamon Wrote:  
(18-11-2011 05:47 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I'm pretty sure we have evolved past the point of relying on evolution. The question is "Now what?" Do we use our technology to further reinforce the evolutionary imperatives which got us here? Or do we realize that it's time to let them go and move in an entirely different direction?

Problem with that, GirlyMan, is that we have to use our caveman-brains (psychologically speaking) before we can move in any direction, and our caveman-brains tell us:

KILL! PLUNDER! RAPE!

I'm a big fan of baby steps, let's get that shit out of me first. Now when I see that, I can only imagine myself as the object not the subject. (But I got Mossberg's to at least make it difficult.) Baby steps.

(18-11-2011 05:53 PM)Zatamon Wrote:  Try to tell it to a god to fix this without removing predation from the design. Rolleyes

There is time to worry about the lion laying down with the lamb later. First let's agree not to eat each other.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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