What kind of god would you LIKE?
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19-11-2011, 09:38 AM
 
RE: What kind of god would you LIKE?
(19-11-2011 08:51 AM)Ghost Wrote:  I don't think that humans are flawed any more than sharks, ants, or mongooses are flawed.

I agree with this. However, if "sharks, ants, or mongooses" had our technology, they would not hesitate to use it in their own perceived self interest.

Quote:I would argue, vigorously, that our cave man brains say no such thing. The Homo genus has been around for 2 million years, give or take, and it's only in the last 5 000 that we've had a serious and sustained negative impact on the biosphere; that we've been killing, plundering and raping as a way of life. But for the lion's share of 2 million years, we were as harmless as bats and snakes and fish. Even if you narrow it to Homo sapiens (maybe 100 000 years) or even Cro-Magnon (about 60 000), we have still spent, by far, most of our time as a species living in harmony with our environment.

Same comment as the previous one: we did not have the numbers and the technology to do major damage. Now we do.

Quote:Predation, in my estimation, has nothing to do with war. How we, as a culture, approach and resolve competition does. How we as a culture approach competition is vastly different than how we as a species approach it.

And that is what it is: your estimation and, as such, I respect it. My estimation is the opposite: predation has everything to do with the (in hindsight) inevitable course of the history of this planet. I have an essay somewhere in which I put it into a logical cause-and-effect chain, I will try to dig it up and post some of it here (it's a long one).

Quote:Man as a species is not flawed; however, Our culture hosts maladaptive memes and it is those memes that we should concern ourselves with.

'Flawed' is a judgmental kind of word, reeking of religion and I don't want to use it. Our species is what it is. The species of "sharks, ants, or mongooses" are what they are. They all want to survive and pass on their genes. As Lyall Watson wrote in the "Natural History of Evil", the three rules of genes are:

Quote:Be nasty to outsiders, be nice to insiders and cheat where possible

Any of these species would use technology, if they could, to obey their genes. Any of them would increase the power of their technology if they could. Any of them would self-destruct at the end.

We are just the 'lucky' animal species who got to it first. The way it looks: we will be the last as well.

ETA:

(19-11-2011 09:10 AM)Peterkin Wrote:  Huh? If it's all the same selection process, and if it's all based on acceptance of the reality of predation, pain and privation, how can culture be altered?

Peterkin made a very important point, Matt, which highlights a contradiction: either we are the same kind of species as all the others, governed by the rules of evolution (in which case our culture is a mere by-product and peripheral) or we are free from the rules of evolution and then we can alter our evolutionary destiny (in my view self-destruction) by altering our culture. For me, culture is a thin veneer to be shaken off if and when our genes 'feel' threatened.
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19-11-2011, 09:38 AM
RE: What kind of god would you LIKE?
(18-11-2011 06:39 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(18-11-2011 06:36 PM)Zatamon Wrote:  
(18-11-2011 06:32 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  First let's agree not to eat each other.
...and how do you propose to do that, GirlyMan? Huh
We point out that eating each other is not in our mutual best interests?

I'm still back on plant people so.... what if our metabolism utilized a combination of nutrition gathered from each other and exteriorly. We might grow parts of our bodies, cut them off and they of course would regenerate, not unlike our hair. Certain leafy parts in the newer "sprout" stage would be eatable... -like fiddleheads of ferns, once they they unfurl they are toxic. Sharing our sprouts would be a delightful experience -not just sexual- but I suppose that could be part of it. We might also compost our discards for our own consumption.
I also have no problem waiting for some animal to take a crap or to die so I can take nitrogen and nutrients from the spot where he died. Who knows... dirt laden with cow blood and guts might taste like steak... hmm?
Might be a more harmonious world if life were a bit more understood to be self sufficient. Seems to me, being self sufficient would be of great value in a newly redesigned world.

Rolleyes CAUTION: VERY OFF SUBJECT---> One thing I think I've never heard anyone address... has anyone ever seen any Star Trek man or woman go to the bathroom? Yea, we've seen them have sex, we've seen them eat, but has anyone ever seen them poo? Where does it go... what do they do with their Star Trek poo? Undecided
Shy Maybe I'm thinking a bit much here, but those are pretty together people - they don't have a monetary system, rather self improvement is the valued thing... yet, I have never seen a toilet.
Dodgy This is what separates fiction from reality, I suppose.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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19-11-2011, 09:53 AM (This post was last modified: 19-11-2011 10:07 AM by Peterkin.)
RE: What kind of god would you LIKE?
...nor do people brush their teeth on screen, and pregnant women don't throw up, or sweat and scream. I never missed that kind of scene; prefer to keep gross things unseen. Yay, Star Trek!

PS even more off topic. Have you read Sheri Tepper? Especially a novel called Grass. I think you'd like it.

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
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19-11-2011, 10:00 AM (This post was last modified: 19-11-2011 10:10 AM by kim.)
RE: What kind of god would you LIKE?
(19-11-2011 01:55 AM)yosemitesam Wrote:  I'm new here, and I gotta say, you people are all pretty amazing. I wish some religious folks would peek in on this post. It really shows the incredible depth, thought and mental energy you all put forth when thinking about life. And for some believer to think that atheists don't believe just so they can sin or not be held accountable for all their evil is just silly when you read some of the comments here. I can't imagine a Christian post going in so many directions, and so intelligently. But I could be wrong…

Hi Yosemitesam. Yea well, I don't know about you, but I've had trouble keeping up with this one... admittedly, my attention has been slacking. Dodgy
We do think about life... what else is there? I'm sure (seriously doubt) if there's some "God", he can take care of himself. We've no choice but to whip our own asses into shape. Wink
Suffice to say - we have our moments. Tongue

Heart Welcome to the forum.

(19-11-2011 09:53 AM)Peterkin Wrote:  PS even more off topic. Have you read Sheri Tepper? Especially a novel called Grass. I think you'd like it.

Pretty wary of science fiction anymore but...
Wow, I just looked it up - it does sound great! The hook for me would be mysterious alien plague. I'm a Richard Preston reader -can't wait to find out how he completed Michael Crichton's unfinished last novel.

Smile Thanks - more to add to my reading list!

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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19-11-2011, 10:11 AM
 
RE: What kind of god would you LIKE?
(19-11-2011 09:38 AM)kim Wrote:  I'm still back on plant people so.... what if our metabolism utilized a combination of nutrition gathered from each other and exteriorly. We might grow parts of our bodies, cut them off and they of course would regenerate, not unlike our hair. Certain leafy parts in the newer "sprout" stage would be eatable... -like fiddleheads of ferns, once they they unfurl they are toxic. Sharing our sprouts would be a delightful experience -not just sexual- but I suppose that could be part of it.

Brilliant thought, Kim!

Eating each others' body parts, not just for sex (we already do it, sort of Tongue) but actually, for nutrition!

I would love to have started as a fiddlehead (maybe I did and that's where my violin playing comes from) and either be eaten and be part of the current 'I', or grow up and unfurl to light and be toxic to predators!

What a vision! Hat off to you, Kim, for this post!

ETA:


I gave you a +1 for this, and for quite a few posts you impressed me with recently. Smile
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19-11-2011, 10:24 AM (This post was last modified: 19-11-2011 10:29 AM by kim.)
RE: What kind of god would you LIKE?
(19-11-2011 10:11 AM)Zatamon Wrote:  I gave you a +1 for this, and for quite a few posts you impressed me with recently. Smile

Smile Wow, Thanks! It's been a while since I made a grade at all, much less an A.

Wink Usually that BFA in painting qualifies me for everything but mostly nothing.

________

As mammals, we currently do provide each other with nutrition - as photosynthetic organisms, if engendered, males would also be able to provide for young... could be an interesting experience.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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19-11-2011, 11:55 AM
 
RE: What kind of god would you LIKE?
(19-11-2011 09:38 AM)kim Wrote:  I'm still back on plant people so.... what if our metabolism utilized a combination of nutrition gathered from each other and exteriorly. .... Sharing our sprouts would be a delightful experience -not just sexual- ...for our own consumption.

This post is a treasure trove for ideas.

It just occurred to me that theists will latch on the part I quoted above, to prove that atheists are all perverts and BABY EATERS!

Oh Horrors!

Angry
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19-11-2011, 12:08 PM
RE: What kind of god would you LIKE?
(19-11-2011 11:55 AM)Zatamon Wrote:  
(19-11-2011 09:38 AM)kim Wrote:  I'm still back on plant people so.... what if our metabolism utilized a combination of nutrition gathered from each other and exteriorly. .... Sharing our sprouts would be a delightful experience -not just sexual- ...for our own consumption.

This post is a treasure trove for ideas.

It just occurred to me that theists will latch on the part I quoted above, to prove that atheists are all perverts and BABY EATERS!

Oh Horrors!

Angry

Ha- YUM! Big Grin

Dodgy Suddenly, I'm starving!

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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19-11-2011, 03:43 PM
RE: What kind of god would you LIKE?
Since we're still discussing this, while the plant focus sounds good it is possible to go beyond it and create a world of no sacrificial hunger where everything is plentiful. This might be a question of desire. in the past centuries christians believed and I think they still generally do, that there is no need to eat in heaven and that angels don't. John Milton couldn't imagine a creation being denied the joys of eating. I really do enjoy eating, but it's not something I would have to have in a lifeform.

If you've ever tried fasting there's a certain wonderful feeling that happens after the 3rd day of nothing but water. Your entire body feels calm as it stops really working. When your stomach shuts down there's a lot of daily feelings that just stop happening. This feeling is amazing, if it could be constant that would be great. I can easily imagine removing digestion from the picture. Do you realize that while not digesting your body grows softer and in ways more youthful? Without your stomache your body isn't oxidizing so it's not aging at the same rate.

I always thought it was stupid as a kid when they suggested that man be made out of dirt, why are there all these things inside? People try to act like it's a beautiful part of the system to have all these parts, but if beings lived without their internal systems everything would be much better. To this I say photosynthesis is only a small step, you're still oxidizing with photosynthesis and still decaying your own body. If we're going all the way let's take it out completely.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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19-11-2011, 04:14 PM
 
RE: What kind of god would you LIKE?
(19-11-2011 03:43 PM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  Since we're still discussing this, while the plant focus sounds good it is possible to go beyond it

Well, if we want to do away with all those icky internal organs, then we don't have a lot of choice: we still need energy in order to retain identity, so we would have to ask god to redesign the universe, populated with life forms that resemble solar-powered computers, and Artificial Intelligence software.

I can see a lot of advantage in this: we would not ever be hungry (except on dark days, but god could give us a binary star system with one star always visible), we would not have to poo, no stomach ache and we would have unlimited gaming time.

We also could communicate in a network, exchange information at the speed of light and running a Forum like this would be a breeze.

The down side would be lack of sex, but maybe the occasional power surge could provide the jolt we would get off on. Big Grin
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