What kind of god would you LIKE?
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16-11-2011, 12:07 PM
RE: What kind of god would you LIKE?
The solution to the problem of duality, is, of course, ray.

Rather than consider "infinities of good and evil" in a lifeline that is actually a segment; isolate the "evil," call it Origin - and move forward into the light.

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16-11-2011, 12:15 PM
 
RE: What kind of god would you LIKE?
Ghost, I have to give up.

I have the impression that you have not read half the things I wrote because you seem to be arguing with what I did NOT write.

Maybe Peterkin can continue with that bridge but I really said everything (three times) that I wanted to say on this subject.

We may just have to agree to disagree, that's all.

No hard feelings, for sure. Smile
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16-11-2011, 02:55 PM (This post was last modified: 16-11-2011 04:12 PM by Peterkin.)
RE: What kind of god would you LIKE?
(16-11-2011 09:19 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Our life does mean something. It can't not. Human cognition doesn't work any other way. Even nothing means something.

That's your choice, and i respect it.

Quote: I'm dealing with the real. Suffering is real. We can sit here and say human life would be better without it all day but we'll never know because that could only happen with magic.

Well.... yeah. The question in the upper left corner is, obviously, about magic.

Quote: If people think the world would be a better place if God eliminated suffering, well, it's their right to believe that hypothetical.

And that's all they said, in reply to a simple question about their preference.

Quote:I don't think it would make life better because I think it would sterilise it. That's my hypothetical.

The Judeo-Christian meme that says "suffering ennobles" or "suffering elevates" or some damn thing like that is a strong one. But it's never spent much time in a workhouse or leper colony.
In the jungles of reality, a healthy panther who never had a broken bone or bellyache or loss of confidence in his virility, is more likely to procreate than one who has suffered. The sick and starving are far less able to leave their DNA.
So what, exactly, does pain and misery engender - besides more successful predators?

Quote: What I don't understand is if someone doesn't believe in God, meaning it's not God's job, meaning suffering is simply a naturally occurring phenomenon, then why get upset about its existence?

Because we don't like it! Upsetness over bad stuff is part of reality, too. Animal is unhappy about whatever pain it must suffer, avoids it as much as possible. No savouring and appreciating and turning it into art and expecting it to give him a spiritual ascendency.
I'm not saying you approve of suffering, but the notion that suffering is necessary to humanness is deeply embedded in our culture; hard to shake. Even though we all know quite high-functioning people who are happy.
ETA I have an artist friend with a chronic ailment. He doesn't mine the pain for material to paint about; he medicates and meditates and does whatever is necessary to keep the pain out of the way, so he can get some painting done. You use pain if it's inescapable - but naked ladies are good, too.

Quote:Let me get back to basics. If the fox kills the hare then it's good for the fox and bad for the hare. If the hare escapes then it's good for the hare and bad for the fox. Whether it's God or an equation or chance or causality in charge of that decision, I understand that those sorts of "decisions" occur every day in pretty much every domain in the universe.

These choices are necessary in the world as it is. Predation - all its long, inescapable history and prehistory - formed us, yes. That's the way it is ... and that's the situation we humans have been trying to change, at least for ourselves and our offspring (while exacerbating for all others), ever since we've been able to affect our environment.
If it had all been caused by a god, that god would be either an omnipotent bastard or an incompetent failure ....
...because that's not the best possible design. I can imagine better; many writers have imagined better.
Zatamon can imagine better - i guess he gets frustrated at being told that he can't, or shouldn't even try.

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16-11-2011, 03:10 PM
 
RE: What kind of god would you LIKE?
(16-11-2011 02:55 PM)Peterkin Wrote:  Animal is unhappy about whatever pain it must suffer, avoids it as much as possible. No savouring and appreciating and turning it into art and expecting it to give him a spiritual ascendency.
.............
Zatamon can imagine better - i guess he gets frustrated at being told that he can't, or shouldn't even try.

That is one of my problems.

Th OP was about "What kind of god would we like"?

The question is wide open: the sky is the limit.

So, how about a god that provided us (and every living creature) with a nuclear power pack at birth that would last 100 years (and limit our ability to procreate at replacement value)? Since he is omnipotent (being a god), he could easily do that.

Or, how about a god the gave ALL of us the ability to survive by photosynthesis? Wouldn't it be cool, walking around with leaves sticking out of our ears?

Or, how about a god that provided us and every living creature with antennas to extract energy from cosmic radiation?

The options (for a god) are unlimited.

Why did the bastard force us to eat each other?

However, never mind the god since the bastard does not exist.

Am I mad at god?

How can I when I don't believe in him?

So, who am I mad at?

People who think that suffering is good for us.

Let them take their suffering, I will take my pleasure. As much as I can get, at nobody else's expense.

If that attitude makes me less than human, so be it. Tongue
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16-11-2011, 07:56 PM (This post was last modified: 16-11-2011 08:14 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: What kind of god would you LIKE?
Peterkin pretty much summed it up in the post about arguing to the extremes. But I'll respond just to reinforce the point.

(16-11-2011 01:28 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, GirlyMan.

Competition and suffering: So when lions rip water buffalo apart or a kangaroo leaves her joey to die of thirst in the desert or polar bears have to swim for seven days because their environment changes, there's no suffering? Competition means that some must go with less or go without or die. That’s the inescapable truth of it.

So when I get a better rating than my coworkers I am competing against the difference is a couple thousand bucks in bonuses. But we are all still fat and happy and nobody died. My coworkers didn't "suffer" for the lack of that couple thousand bucks. Competition does not necessarily imply life or death or suffering.

(16-11-2011 01:28 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Suffering and hedonism: Without suffering, what is there to do but pursue pleasure?

I personally am not pursuing anything. I'm just along for the ride until I decide it's time to get off or my train comes to its last station.

(16-11-2011 01:28 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Blame for suffering: So humans are to blame?

Humans are in a unique cognitive position to recognize and alleviate suffering. If we fail to act on it, then we are at best negligent.

(16-11-2011 01:28 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Not pleasurable: That's just splitting hairs. More to the point, you wouldn't know what not pleasurable was if all there was was pleasure.

I'm not splitting hairs, I don't need to have knowledge of pain to experience pleasure. But that's a damn good reason not to desire heaven.

(16-11-2011 01:28 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Satanists: no. It was a legitimate question. I’m sensing that for some people, blaming God for suffering isn’t just a pithy counter-argument to the all powerful, all benevolent Christian God, but that it’s actual vitriolic anger at God for allowing these things. But that’s just a sense.

They are not atheists, regardless of what they call themselves. They cannot be by definition.

(16-11-2011 01:28 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Conservation of suffering: Educated guess, not a rule. Although in many cases what is good for one is bad for another.

Doesn't mean it has to be that way. Just because certain evolutionary imperatives have brought us to a certain point doesn't mean we need to sign onto some Grover Norquist pledge to maintain them. Evolution has brought us to a point where not only can we overcome these evolutionary imperatives, we can fucking manipulate, redirect, and accelerate them.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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16-11-2011, 09:09 PM
RE: What kind of god would you LIKE?
Here is another oversimplified thought:
Without pain, we would never have developed anesthetics.

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
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16-11-2011, 09:32 PM
 
RE: What kind of god would you LIKE?
hey Zatamon!

i think your idea about every living thing being able to survive with photosythesis is pretty damn cool. there is the problem of energy (plants don't get around much...) but then i guess this 'god' could have made the sun a bit stonger! (not the bad parts, just the yummy turn into C6H12O6 parts!

anyway... i can't say the people who disagree are wrong, they are jut not being quite as imaginative about it; still applying standards based on our current planet to your imaginary one.

i agree that a world without predation would be pretty nice. it would require a complete re-working of our current reality, but hey, we are talking about an omnipotent (not an imaginary genocidal douche fucker like that yaweh chraracter and his creepy kid) god, so anything is possible! he would be like a friend in the sky, it would be impossible not to believe in him, because he wouldn't be hiding.

the parts about competition that your detractors brought up are right... but only in the context of this current reality. Zatamon is not just imagining a world with just one or two tweaks, he is re-working the whole damn thing. which is what the post was asking, so agree!

oh....and i will take leaves coming out of my ears anyday!
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17-11-2011, 12:03 AM
RE: What kind of god would you LIKE?
Easy answer. Heaven. Christians believe in the perfect heaven, where people don't have freewill (otherwise there would be rape and violence in general) but where there is only good and no evil. A perfect place that God doesn't seem to have utterly fucked up. Why would he make earth the place to wipe your feet before entering the actual perfect place?

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo

"Every man is guilty of all the good he did not do." - Voltaire
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17-11-2011, 01:22 AM
RE: What kind of god would you LIKE?
Pain is not the author of appreciation.

Pain is not the harbinger of creativity.

Pain is not the payment or barter for receipt of goods.

Pain is not a prerequisite to anything.

These are ancient thought creations that came from our inability to understand. They are the same stuff of religion; the great broken record.

All lesser variations on the theme pain don't fit. They can all be experienced in the positive: competition, game, expanding the intellect based on joy, life and ecstatic creativity. Extremes are not relevant or necessary and are utterly overrated. The idea of pain bringing joy is too old testament for reasonable consideration.

Can we evolve a bit? New God? Please? Amen

Who can turn skies back and begin again?
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17-11-2011, 01:32 AM (This post was last modified: 17-11-2011 01:36 AM by houseofcantor.)
RE: What kind of god would you LIKE?
(16-11-2011 03:10 PM)Zatamon Wrote:  People who think that suffering is good for us.

Your button is stuck, dude. Graphite. Solution for sticky buttons.

The Ray of Gwynnies works - use it. Take alla them "evils," toss 'em in the origin bin. I get "stuck on stupid" as zero-state is a buggy prototype - I don't need to "live without suffering;" my argument was that word can be separated from concept and re-conceptualized.

But if you say suffering doesn't exist - POOF - suffering doesn't exist.

(I remember passing on the conceptual design to enable this stuff, you... alf you. Tongue)

Love is Void. That's the Monopole to end all monopoles. Wink
(17-11-2011 01:22 AM)defacto7 Wrote:  Pain is not the author of appreciation.

Pain is not the harbinger of creativity.

Pain is not the payment or barter for receipt of goods.

Pain is not a prerequisite to anything.

These are ancient thought creations that came from our inability to understand. They are the same stuff of religion; the great broken record.

All lesser variations on the theme pain don't fit. They can all be experienced in the positive: competition, game, expanding the intellect based on joy, life and ecstatic creativity. Extremes are not relevant or necessary and are utterly overrated. The idea of pain bringing joy is too old testament for reasonable consideration.

Can we evolve a bit? New God? Please? Amen

evolution. Tongue
what a "theory"

Kidding of course, but you can come over here and beat me to near-death... know what happens? Sex...

Yeah, not everybody's got the "right" to be a parent.... Big Grin

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