What made you an Atheist and not an Agnostic?
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03-01-2015, 08:27 PM
RE: What made you an Atheist and not an Agnostic?
Seven years of Catholic school after five or six years of catechism classes.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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04-01-2015, 03:28 PM
RE: What made you an Atheist and not an Agnostic?
Atheism is described as "one who has no beliefs in gods."

Do you think it was just a coincidence that on the day we were all born that we had no beliefs in any gods?

Hell no!

I am an atheist because i was born that way.

Drinking Beverage

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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04-01-2015, 08:53 PM
RE: What made you an Atheist and not an Agnostic?
I have to reject the line that babies are born atheists on the same ground that rocks are not atheists. There's a difference between lack of belief and lack of capacity for belief.

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04-01-2015, 09:33 PM (This post was last modified: 04-01-2015 10:27 PM by Free.)
RE: What made you an Atheist and not an Agnostic?
(04-01-2015 08:53 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  I have to reject the line that babies are born atheists on the same ground that rocks are not atheists. There's a difference between lack of belief and lack of capacity for belief.

Apples and oranges.

Atheism is quite simply a state of being, not a position held. If this were not true, each of us would be born with a fucking bible in our hand and professing Jesus as lord.

We were born with no beliefs in any deities, and that is identical to the definition of atheism. Anyone who has no beliefs in deities is an atheist, and that includes anyone who has never even heard of the bible.

Quote:Atheism is:

1. Iin a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.

2. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.

3. Most inclusively, atheism is the absence of belief that any deities exist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

Atheism is our most natural state of being because the day we were born- up until we became aware of religion- we all had an absence of belief in the existence of deities.

You do not "become" an atheist when you leave religion, but rather you simply revert back to your natural atheistic state of being.

Those who were raised with no beliefs in deities cannot become an atheist because they already are atheists.

Drinking Beverage

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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04-01-2015, 10:21 PM
RE: What made you an Atheist and not an Agnostic?
(04-01-2015 09:33 PM)Free Wrote:  We were born with no beliefs in any deities, and that is identical to the definition of atheism. Anyone who has no beliefs in deities is an atheist, and that includes anyone who has never even heard of the bible.

I agree with most of what you're saying. The problem is that we're in a grey area where the term "anyone" is pivotal. I'd suggest that it's more accurate to say that an atheist is any person who has no beliefs in deities. You and I qualify as persons. Rocks, doors, trees and fish do not. Infants are in the process of becoming a person but probably don't qualify yet. A newborn is not simply incapable of belief or disbelief, it is incapable of even being exposed to religion. Even if it were born with a bible in its hands.

Though that sort of a labor would be conclusive evidence for a capricious and sadistic deity.

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04-01-2015, 11:31 PM (This post was last modified: 04-01-2015 11:34 PM by Robvalue.)
RE: What made you an Atheist and not an Agnostic?
I've never heard a single coherent, falsifiable claim about a God. (Except mundane things like God is the sun or God is the universe...) So until I do, there is nothing to even seriously consider. I would generally describe myself as agnostic if asked, just to show I'm open minded to any new argument or evidence. But my position really depends on what claim is being put forward. Ignostic describes me better, but I only just found that word out myself recently so I wouldn't go around confusing religious guys with it since most of them don't even know what atheist means!

I tell you what though. If I did believe there was some sort of God, and I was worshipping it, I'd do everything I could to distance that God from the monsters portrayed in the DIY atrocity manuals.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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04-01-2015, 11:50 PM
RE: What made you an Atheist and not an Agnostic?
(04-01-2015 10:21 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  
(04-01-2015 09:33 PM)Free Wrote:  We were born with no beliefs in any deities, and that is identical to the definition of atheism. Anyone who has no beliefs in deities is an atheist, and that includes anyone who has never even heard of the bible.

I agree with most of what you're saying. The problem is that we're in a grey area where the term "anyone" is pivotal. I'd suggest that it's more accurate to say that an atheist is any person who has no beliefs in deities. You and I qualify as persons. Rocks, doors, trees and fish do not. Infants are in the process of becoming a person but probably don't qualify yet. A newborn is not simply incapable of belief or disbelief, it is incapable of even being exposed to religion. Even if it were born with a bible in its hands.

Though that sort of a labor would be conclusive evidence for a capricious and sadistic deity.

@ Free. I have to agree here with Paleo. Everyone is also born not knowing anything and unaware of everything except for mom’s milk and that is instinctive not learned.

So it woud be more accurate to say we are all atheist until taught about deities but this could be said for the vast majority of what we eventually learn, be it how to read or write or what we know about the universe. So the default position on all knowledge is nil. What we learn and accept as true will depend on our parents, teachers and the society we live in.

Teaching children about imaginary, non-provable, non-testable deities in this time and age is tantamount to child abuse imo.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
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04-01-2015, 11:58 PM
RE: What made you an Atheist and not an Agnostic?
Thank you, yes! I too consider it child abuse, and I would go so far as to see this legislated, difficult though that may be. I'd add to that bringing children to church. That is not education.

Indoctrination is mind rape.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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05-01-2015, 08:28 AM (This post was last modified: 05-01-2015 09:48 AM by Free.)
RE: What made you an Atheist and not an Agnostic?
(04-01-2015 11:50 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(04-01-2015 10:21 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  I agree with most of what you're saying. The problem is that we're in a grey area where the term "anyone" is pivotal. I'd suggest that it's more accurate to say that an atheist is any person who has no beliefs in deities. You and I qualify as persons. Rocks, doors, trees and fish do not. Infants are in the process of becoming a person but probably don't qualify yet. A newborn is not simply incapable of belief or disbelief, it is incapable of even being exposed to religion. Even if it were born with a bible in its hands.

Though that sort of a labor would be conclusive evidence for a capricious and sadistic deity.

@ Free. I have to agree here with Paleo. Everyone is also born not knowing anything and unaware of everything except for mom’s milk and that is instinctive not learned.

So it woud be more accurate to say we are all atheist until taught about deities but this could be said for the vast majority of what we eventually learn, be it how to read or write or what we know about the universe. So the default position on all knowledge is nil. What we learn and accept as true will depend on our parents, teachers and the society we live in.

Teaching children about imaginary, non-provable, non-testable deities in this time and age is tantamount to child abuse imo.

A little history here.

The oldest known written use of the word "atheist" is traced to the Epistle to the Ephesians in this entry:

Eph 2:12 and that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.

Paul was writing to the Ephesians and reminding them that before they received his gospel, they were atheists. That was their state of being before they got involved in religion. That was their state of being the day they were born, and all through their life until they were taught doctrine.

All people are "godless"- atheists- until they get indoctrinated. It is the natural state of being for all of us.

Again, you do not become an atheist. You are born as one, and you become a religionist, if you get indoctrinated. When you leave religion, you are only returning back to your state of atheism, and re-entering the realm of reason.

Atheism has existed long before any religion was ever thought of for the simple reason that before you can believe in any gods, you must first be godless, and being godless is the oldest definition of atheism.

The purest definition of atheism is historical, and it means to be "godless," and in modern terms it is synonymous with the definition of:

3. Most inclusively, atheism is the absence of belief that any deities exist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

Atheists are those who are godless, which necessarily implies a lack of beliefs. And that is the most natural state of being for all people since that is, in fact, the way we were born.

Hence, atheism is a state of being, not a position held.

Smile

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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05-01-2015, 09:08 AM
RE: What made you an Atheist and not an Agnostic?
Why not just throw a few rocks in the barrel...Drinking Beverage

I agree with Free on the element of infants being atheists because they lack belief. If you want to say all rocks are atheists too, it's fine, if you want to wait to determine the being as atheist once you consider it an official human independent entity(if you make that distinction) go ahead.

Though the point brought up prior about them being gnostic-atheists I completely disagree with. Because I don't draw the distinction of that to having no concept of god being in anyway equal to the same concept of knowledge of the absence. I also hold Gnosticism in all topics to be a very rare thing for anyone to have, I basically only claim it in tautological terms or when it comes to remedial things such as my name. I don't find that a fitting stance for a being without any knowledge of anything but instincts.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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