What makes me maddest about theists
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11-05-2015, 03:45 PM
RE: What makes me maddest about theists
(11-05-2015 09:57 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(08-05-2015 10:22 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Do you have and show respect for child abusers? Spouses that are physically abusive? That cheat? Do you respect people that prey on others for financial gain? I thought you would support the "do unto other as they do to you" concept. That is how we avoid condoning destructive behavior and encourage actual change for the better. Throwing around respect (and even love) to one and all diminishes the value of those concepts.

You say you are not anti-science, but show you are indeed when a conflict with scripture is at stake. Also, by teaching scripture's explanations for existence and that godly miracles are possible, you have lied. If you tell a child that prayer has a function you have lied. If you have told any child that they are weak or sinful, and require salvation as a fix, you have lied. If you have taught the concept of "faith" as a virtue - you have lied.

How christians act to your face and what they think are not one in the same. You are indoctrinated to view those that do not buy into your beliefs as broken, lost, angry, misguided, needing saving, and flat out stubborn to the word of god. Sadly christians are taught that the disbelief in imaginary friends is a character flaw, and all the "negative" aspects of human behavior (and this world in general) are the fault of nonbelievers.

You are allowed to have all the faith and views you like, but you will gain no respect from me. Deal with it cuz you ain't that special, and you can't substantiate most of what you think is true in your specific version of your specific religious view of choice.

All persons deserve respect. In America, some of the rights all persons deserve are enumerated in our Constitution and other foundational documents. Once Americans were on board with showing everyone respect, a process which still continues, of course, more and more persons received the benefit of these rights.

I would say there would be something rather wrong with me if I didn't experience a conflict between the scriptures and science--blindly accepting that everything in the Bible must have happened the way I think it had at first look is as bad IMHO as blindly rejecting everything one reads in the Bible. I think it's normal for someone who understands even the basics about modern biology, cosmology and geology to find discomfort in reading some of the scriptures. That's normal.

I don't know if I'd call faith a virtue. For me, a good working synonym, even the best, for faith, is trust. I'm saved the same way I trusted a bus driver to bring me to a location last week--via relaxing aboard the bus and letting the driver bring me to the destination. The question we must ask ourselves, "Is trusting Jesus reasonable?"

Again you conflate terms to try and make a point. Rights and respect are not one in the same. I as an American will honor and support your rights, but I do not need to respect any individual or group. This is a choice we all make.

So you find conflict and discomfort with scriptures, yet you will defend the authors, events, and claims with tenacity. So telling yourself lies, in addition to children, is also not worthy of respect.

You have a funny way of assigning trust. A character within these very scriptures, where you find discomfort and conflicts with reality and science, is a figure to place your trust in.

Understand why this approach is so often attacked by the non-religious. I trust that the scientific community will provide my life with meaning and answers, not an intangible and mythical being. I trust my fellow humans and the good they can do. I can place my trust in that we may get it wrong sometimes at first, but we figure it out and agree as to what is right. Religion has you first convinced it is right, only to be figured out to be "uncomfortable", in "conflict", and flat out wrong. Which journey do you want to be part of there Q?

Only you can break the spell and realize that it is not saving that you need, but thinking.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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11-05-2015, 11:16 PM
RE: What makes me maddest about theists
Sooo, Jesus was a bus driver?
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12-05-2015, 12:40 AM
RE: What makes me maddest about theists
(11-05-2015 10:22 AM)Dusky Wrote:  
(11-05-2015 09:57 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  All persons deserve respect. In America, some of the rights all persons deserve are enumerated in our Constitution and other foundational documents. Once Americans were on board with showing everyone respect, a process which still continues, of course, more and more persons received the benefit of these rights.

I would say there would be something rather wrong with me if I didn't experience a conflict between the scriptures and science--blindly accepting that everything in the Bible must have happened the way I think it had at first look is as bad IMHO as blindly rejecting everything one reads in the Bible. I think it's normal for someone who understands even the basics about modern biology, cosmology and geology to find discomfort in reading some of the scriptures. That's normal.

I don't know if I'd call faith a virtue. For me, a good working synonym, even the best, for faith, is trust. I'm saved the same way I trusted a bus driver to bring me to a location last week--via relaxing aboard the bus and letting the driver bring me to the destination. The question we must ask ourselves, "Is trusting Jesus reasonable?"

Good thing is, we can actually prove the bus driver would be a real person in that case. The analogy really doesn't fit with yours.

You're putting your "trust" in something you cannot see, touch, hear, or smell. I'd say taste, but that'd be weird.

Not to us Catholics Smile

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
- my friend Marc
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12-05-2015, 12:50 AM
RE: What makes me maddest about theists
(09-05-2015 08:14 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(04-05-2015 11:12 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  I actually used to be fine with slavery until I found the Catholic Church's official teaching and even then it wasn't until I got the reasoning from Rerum Novarum that I really became actively anti-slavery.

You can't be serious. You actually are so fucking stupid and devoid of moral character that you needed the damn Pope to explain to you why it's wrong ?
Un-be-fucking-leivable.

Not stupid, just no actual morality. I was also playing around with Nietzche at the time. I liked the idea of rule by the stronger. I think part of my lack of morality stemmed from me not having a definite personality. Many people base their morality on what makes them happy or sad and then applying that to others. Nothing made me happy or sad unless I decided I wanted it to. Even today I still tend to consider emotions relatively important. When you combine that with the fact that I don't consider either freedom or equality to be important, as we'll as holding obedience and security to be important. Acceptance of slavery isn't all that difficult to rationalize.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
- my friend Marc
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12-05-2015, 01:28 AM
RE: What makes me maddest about theists
(12-05-2015 12:50 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  Acceptance of slavery isn't all that difficult to rationalize.

Would you be happy to be a slave?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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12-05-2015, 01:42 AM (This post was last modified: 12-05-2015 01:45 AM by ClydeLee.)
RE: What makes me maddest about theists
(12-05-2015 12:50 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  
(09-05-2015 08:14 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You can't be serious. You actually are so fucking stupid and devoid of moral character that you needed the damn Pope to explain to you why it's wrong ?
Un-be-fucking-leivable.

Not stupid, just no actual morality. I was also playing around with Nietzche at the time. I liked the idea of rule by the stronger. I think part of my lack of morality stemmed from me not having a definite personality. Many people base their morality on what makes them happy or sad and then applying that to others. Nothing made me happy or sad unless I decided I wanted it to. Even today I still tend to consider emotions relatively important. When you combine that with the fact that I don't consider either freedom or equality to be important, as we'll as holding obedience and security to be important. Acceptance of slavery isn't all that difficult to rationalize.

That's a rather interesting twist, especially since how Nietzsche was very aggressive against Christianity and the Catholic church due to the slave dynamics they propagated.

I get where you can come from. A lot of people at some young stages may think there are some elements of some grand thoughts saying, we should allow the strong willed forces do as they will and not be held back but that's not even clearly a desired trait by those who often wrote it. You should be able to rationalize the acceptance of nearly anything, but that doesn't mean you should think in any sensible society, it should be needing acceptance. You do value obedience as a higher grounds than some people may, there are a segment of people who find that a critical moral value but many don't.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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12-05-2015, 07:50 AM
RE: What makes me maddest about theists
I've never met Abraham Lincoln, but I appreciate his words and his actions. I trust a lot of what he wrote as truth, encouragement, and even moral guidance. I've never met Jesus Christ, but ditto. The evidence that both people existed in the past includes documentary evidence. With Lincoln we have added forensic evidence, but Lincoln's exhumed remains wouldn't prove he said what he said and lived as he did.

Biblical slavery isn't the same as the kind of slavery we saw in the Americas. A bondservant or indentured servant isn't the same in the scriptures as the slave who in the Americas was dehumanized and called property and not a person. Regarding morality in general or in the specifics, however, there is a real issue here at TTA. When I hear me talking about slavery, I speak from a conscience informed by the scriptures and by personal experience, and personal choice. When I hear a skeptic say things like "C'mon, we all know slavery is wrong," I know that other humans who are irreligious think slavery is fine. I don't want to godwin this thread nor shift the goalposts, but I do feel like telling you that I can find no perceptible difference between you, me and a Nazi, other than personal choices made. My personal choices are to follow the biblical codes for morality as best I may. If you follow a skeptic's moral code, you may have been influenced by others whom you allowed to exert influence over you, same as I have, but you and me and the Nazi all have that.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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12-05-2015, 07:57 AM
RE: What makes me maddest about theists
Evidence for Jesus is suspect. Not so much for Abe.

Why do you lie so much?
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12-05-2015, 08:15 AM (This post was last modified: 14-05-2015 10:55 AM by Cosmic Discourse.)
What makes me maddest about theists
While I can appreciate President Lincoln for his diplomatic wit, let's not confuse that with strong moral desire to do the right thing.

Most of his presidential decisions (like most elected american officials) came down to special interests. Modern history books attempt to paint the picture of a "great emancipator", but anyone who's seriously looked into the civil war and the periods surrounding it, will find evidence to the contrary.

He had many correspondence (personal letters) and gave many speeches, which made it clear that his desires were motivated by a want of control. It just so happens that to help his cause, slaves being freed gave him the numbers advantage.

For further understanding of these periods, I recommend:

http://smile.amazon.com/Dred-Scotts-Reve...dred+scott
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12-05-2015, 08:17 AM
RE: What makes me maddest about theists
(11-05-2015 09:51 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(10-05-2015 05:46 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  What is a fruit of the spirit?
Is it something that those without the spirit cannot exhibit?
Is it something those with the spirit exhibit in greater degree?
How would you design an experiment to test this hypothesis? Would you (say) be able to select 100 people off the street, test them for their self control, then ask them to self-identify as atheist, Christian or other... would you see greater self control among Christians? How much greater?
Moot per the scriptures. Everyone has the Spirit in some degree or they would be dead. I don't need to select 100 persons off the street, because I've worked/lived with/discipled etc. Christians and non-Christians. Christians have the fruit to a greater degree.

I'm surprised by that answer. My church's teaching would be that the holy spirit descended upon the disciples at pentecost and has been with us ever since, and that being a Christian was more or less synonymous with being filled with the holy spirit.

So the fruits of the spirit if I remember correct are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness and self-control. And whenever anyone exhibits these traits whether Christian or not they are doing so under the direction of the holy spirit or are being caused in some sense to do so by the holy spirit?

Puzzle me this. My goodness, my kindness, my gentleness won't allow me to accept the god whose actions are recorded in the Bible. Nor will my fruits of the spirit allow me to accept a salvation that is closed to all but a few and is eternal torture to the remainder.

Is it the holy spirit that is preventing me from accepting God, or is it the devil whispering in my ear? Are my fruits from the holy spirit that fills everyone or are the counterfeit? How can we tell the difference?

As for the hypothesis that Christians have these fruits to a greater degree, how could we go about testing that proposition?

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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