What's Next For Apologetics?
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01-05-2015, 07:53 AM
RE: What's Next For Apologetics?
(01-05-2015 07:39 AM)jennybee Wrote:  
(01-05-2015 06:30 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Religions evolve to fit the people that follow them. Otherwise, they tend to die out.

Christianity likely drew a lot from Zoroastrianism, a religion that was popular around Judaism's hay day, and is still practiced today. A lot of the differences between Judaism and Christianity are found in Zoroastrianism (An evil force opposing the good one, a final savior born of a virgin, heaven and hell).

If you read the OT without Christian blinders on and you don't read a lot of NT stories backward into it, you get a different picture. Remember that the OT predates the NT by a good 700 - 800 years. They believed different things. Among other things:
  • People went to Sheol when they died, which is sort of like Hades. There was no good or bad afterlife.
  • When God threatened "death" in the OT, it actually meant "death", not "spiritual" or "eternal" death, as often read backward from the NT. God just fuggin killed fools back then. It's just, those types of threats are falsifiable, and people started to realize that you wouldn't actually die. So, the punishment/reward system got kicked back to the afterlife, where casual observation by any six-year-old couldn't prove it wrong.
  • Satan didn't even exist in the early stories. His first mentioning is in Job, and it's not even clear that he's working against God in that story. Satan evolved throughout the Bible (a good 15-minute video to watch if you have the time), as evident by simply reading the stories chronologically.
  • There was no concept of Original Sin. Sure, Adam and Eve sinned, but this wasn't the DNA-altering, disease-causing event that a lot of apologists like to say it was; at least not in the OT alone.

As for why Jesus was such a hippy, one important thing to remember is that they were under Roman occupation. Rome was pretty good about allowing cultures to keep their religions (with the exception of druids who freaking sacrificed people) so long as they paid their taxes and stayed in line. There's a reason Jesus promoted non-violence in response to a show of force and advocated paying one's taxes to Caesar. If he'd said otherwise, he may have been dragged off and executed as an insurrectionist, and the religion might never have existed.

Also, I wouldn't entirely call Jesus a hippy. In the OT, YHWH would kill you for angering him. Now, you get tortured for eternity for not believing in a nonfalsifiable entity. Out of the frying pan and into the (eternal) fire.

Right lol. Can't forget about the eternal burning torture of damnation lol. I just meant that God of the O.T. was smiting everyone left and right for any reason he could think of. At least Jesus was all about turn the other cheek yadda yadda. I have read a few books about religions evolving. Genesis is a take off on the Enuma Elish (Babylonian creation myth) for instance. I read a few books on the whole Satan thing too. In the O.T.--in most cases--Satan was referred to as *a satan* or a stumbling block--not an actual being (except for in passage such as Job of course). The concept of hell also comes from the Egyptian's belief in the lake of fire--you can see a few passages in the Bible referring to the lake of fire--well, that's where they got it--from the Egyptians. Thanks for the link--I will check that out Thumbsup

He also had strange moments of calm - when Abraham argues with him about fate of Sodom nothing happens to him, when Salomon breaks from monolatry god say that there will be retribution but not on the Salomon. Also Aaron and golden calf, if I recall corectly nothing happened to Aaron.

Also Jesus wasn't only unicorn and rainbows:
Quote:Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword Matthew 10:34
Quote:He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. Matthew 15:4-7

Such things made more sense when one consider them from non believer viewpoint, otherwise searching for sense in the Bible is I think futile.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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01-05-2015, 08:04 AM
RE: What's Next For Apologetics?
(01-05-2015 06:30 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  As for why Jesus was such a hippy, one important thing to remember is that they were under Roman occupation. Rome was pretty good about allowing cultures to keep their religions (with the exception of druids who freaking sacrificed people) so long as they paid their taxes and stayed in line. There's a reason Jesus promoted non-violence in response to a show of force and advocated paying one's taxes to Caesar. If he'd said otherwise, he may have been dragged off and executed as an insurrectionist, and the religion might never have existed.

I have no quibble with most of your argument, but Jesus eventually was dragged off and executed as an insurrectionist (assuming that the Gospels are not pure fiction).
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01-05-2015, 08:08 AM
RE: What's Next For Apologetics?
(01-05-2015 07:39 AM)jennybee Wrote:  In the O.T.--in most cases--Satan was referred to as *a satan* or a stumbling block--not an actual being (except for in passage such as Job of course).

Actually, even in Job (at least in the translations I've read), he is referred to as "the Satan", so even there he is more of a type than a unique individual.
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01-05-2015, 08:09 AM
RE: What's Next For Apologetics?
(01-05-2015 07:53 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(01-05-2015 07:39 AM)jennybee Wrote:  Right lol. Can't forget about the eternal burning torture of damnation lol. I just meant that God of the O.T. was smiting everyone left and right for any reason he could think of. At least Jesus was all about turn the other cheek yadda yadda. I have read a few books about religions evolving. Genesis is a take off on the Enuma Elish (Babylonian creation myth) for instance. I read a few books on the whole Satan thing too. In the O.T.--in most cases--Satan was referred to as *a satan* or a stumbling block--not an actual being (except for in passage such as Job of course). The concept of hell also comes from the Egyptian's belief in the lake of fire--you can see a few passages in the Bible referring to the lake of fire--well, that's where they got it--from the Egyptians. Thanks for the link--I will check that out Thumbsup

He also had strange moments of calm - when Abraham argues with him about fate of Sodom nothing happens to him, when Salomon breaks from monolatry god say that there will be retribution but not on the Salomon. Also Aaron and golden calf, if I recall corectly nothing happened to Aaron.

Also Jesus wasn't only unicorn and rainbows:
Quote:Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword Matthew 10:34
Quote:He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. Matthew 15:4-7

Such things made more sense when one consider them from non believer viewpoint, otherwise searching for sense in the Bible is I think futile.

Lol very true. I wasn't trying to say Jesus was all unicorns and rainbows. I mean in Revelations (in particular), he is one scary dude lol..But in comparing him to God:

*God gets pissed at david for having an affair--So as punishment, God kills David's baby and has all of his wives raped by his son.

*God makes a bet with Satan and has all of Job's (a person who loved and obeyed God) family killed.

*God sends a plague on his people all because David took a census.

*God kills the first born in Egypt.

*Lot's wife turned into a pilar of salt.

*God smites someone for picking up sticks on the sabbath.

*God smites someone for trying to keep the ark from falling over.

*God smites someone for burning strange incense which was offensive to him.

I mean the list keeps going with god's killings in the O.T.--almost on every page. At least Jesus takes a break from being a prick and helps heal a few people along the way lol

In terms of Aaron and his golden calf--a little further along in the passage (Exodus 32) it says this:

25 Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies. 26 So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, “Whoever is for the Lord, come to me.” And all the Levites rallied to him.

27 Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’” 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29 Then Moses said, “You have been set apart to the Lord today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day.”
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01-05-2015, 08:10 AM
RE: What's Next For Apologetics?
To those who wonder WHY the devout spend so much of their time trying to "spread the word"..


It's quite simple.


If YOU believe in something that is on the face of it, unbelievable - then everyone around you thinks you're a psychotic whackjob.

If there's some people around you that you can convince to believe your unbelievable belief -- you've become a leader.

If there's a whole bunch of people who come to believe what you do - you must be right, right???

Simply put -- bullshit is believable - even REAL - if enough stupid people believe it.

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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01-05-2015, 08:17 AM
RE: What's Next For Apologetics?
(01-05-2015 08:08 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(01-05-2015 07:39 AM)jennybee Wrote:  In the O.T.--in most cases--Satan was referred to as *a satan* or a stumbling block--not an actual being (except for in passage such as Job of course).

Actually, even in Job (at least in the translations I've read), he is referred to as "the Satan", so even there he is more of a type than a unique individual.

I didn't see that version of the translation. Very interesting Consider
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01-05-2015, 08:21 AM (This post was last modified: 01-05-2015 08:49 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: What's Next For Apologetics?
(01-05-2015 08:09 AM)jennybee Wrote:  
(01-05-2015 07:53 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  He also had strange moments of calm - when Abraham argues with him about fate of Sodom nothing happens to him, when Salomon breaks from monolatry god say that there will be retribution but not on the Salomon. Also Aaron and golden calf, if I recall corectly nothing happened to Aaron.

Also Jesus wasn't only unicorn and rainbows:
Such things made more sense when one consider them from non believer viewpoint, otherwise searching for sense in the Bible is I think futile.

Lol very true. I wasn't trying to say Jesus was all unicorns and rainbows. I mean in Revelations (in particular), he is one scary dude lol..But in comparing him to God:

*God gets pissed at david for having an affair--So as punishment, God kills David's baby and has all of his wives raped by his son.

*God makes a bet with Satan and has all of Job's (a person who loved and obeyed God) family killed.

*God sends a plague on his people all because David took a census.

*God kills the first born in Egypt.

*Lot's wife turned into a pilar of salt.

*God smites someone for picking up sticks on the sabbath.

*God smites someone for trying to keep the ark from falling over.

*God smites someone for burning strange incense which was offensive to him.

I mean the list keeps going with god's killings in the O.T.--almost on every page. At least Jesus takes a break from being a prick and helps heal a few people along the way lol

In terms of Aaron and his golden calf--a little further along in the passage (Exodus 32) it says this:

25 Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies. 26 So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, “Whoever is for the Lord, come to me.” And all the Levites rallied to him.

27 Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’” 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29 Then Moses said, “You have been set apart to the Lord today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day.”

Sure, if one compare OT god with Jesus the Jesus is The Good Guy, but he is not love and raibows only.

As for Aaron, he himself wasn't hurt I believe. I meant that god while cruel was also strangely merciful, particulary to those he was familiar with - Abraham and Lot, if I not confusing this situation with something else, Lot lived cause he was Abraham family not because of his own virtues.

One could say that god punishments spared perpetrator and targeted his family (not always, but still) - Solomon and his breaking from monolatry, situation with David that you mention, plagues in Egypt.

(01-05-2015 08:17 AM)jennybee Wrote:  
(01-05-2015 08:08 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Actually, even in Job (at least in the translations I've read), he is referred to as "the Satan", so even there he is more of a type than a unique individual.

I didn't see that version of the translation. Very interesting Consider

As for satan/Satan - http://biblical-studies.ca/blog/2011/02/...ok-of-job/

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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01-05-2015, 08:27 AM
RE: What's Next For Apologetics?
(01-05-2015 08:21 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(01-05-2015 08:09 AM)jennybee Wrote:  Lol very true. I wasn't trying to say Jesus was all unicorns and rainbows. I mean in Revelations (in particular), he is one scary dude lol..But in comparing him to God:

*God gets pissed at david for having an affair--So as punishment, God kills David's baby and has all of his wives raped by his son.

*God makes a bet with Satan and has all of Job's (a person who loved and obeyed God) family killed.

*God sends a plague on his people all because David took a census.

*God kills the first born in Egypt.

*Lot's wife turned into a pilar of salt.

*God smites someone for picking up sticks on the sabbath.

*God smites someone for trying to keep the ark from falling over.

*God smites someone for burning strange incense which was offensive to him.

I mean the list keeps going with god's killings in the O.T.--almost on every page. At least Jesus takes a break from being a prick and helps heal a few people along the way lol

In terms of Aaron and his golden calf--a little further along in the passage (Exodus 32) it says this:

25 Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies. 26 So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, “Whoever is for the Lord, come to me.” And all the Levites rallied to him.

27 Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’” 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29 Then Moses said, “You have been set apart to the Lord today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day.”

Sure, if one compare OT god with Jesus the Jesus is The Good Guy, but he is not love and raibows only.

As for Aaron, he himself wasn't hurt I believe. I meant that god while cruel was also strangely merciful, particulary to those he was familiar with - Abraham and Lot, if I not confusing this situation with something else, Lot lived cause he was Abraham family not because of his own virtues.

One could say that god punishments spared perpetrator and targeted his family (not always, but still) - Saolomn and his breaking from monolatry, situation with David thay you mention, plagues in Egypt.

Agreed--I just used the term hippie (sarcastically) as a sharp contrast to God of the O.T. I didn't mean hippie in the sense of a tie-dyed, pot smoking, free love kind of Jesus lol.
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01-05-2015, 08:28 AM
RE: What's Next For Apologetics?
(01-05-2015 08:04 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I have no quibble with most of your argument, but Jesus eventually was dragged off and executed as an insurrectionist (assuming that the Gospels are not pure fiction).

Yes, and it would have happened sooner if he'd told the Jews they didn't have to pay their taxes to Caesar. The whole point of that parable is that they were trying to trick him into either getting arrested or looking like a Roman sympathizer.

He allegedly had three or four years to tell people to play nice. Had he been spending his time telling them to stand up to authority and not pay taxes to Rome, it probably wouldn't have lasted that long.
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01-05-2015, 08:32 AM
RE: What's Next For Apologetics?
(01-05-2015 08:27 AM)jennybee Wrote:  
(01-05-2015 08:21 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Sure, if one compare OT god with Jesus the Jesus is The Good Guy, but he is not love and raibows only.

As for Aaron, he himself wasn't hurt I believe. I meant that god while cruel was also strangely merciful, particulary to those he was familiar with - Abraham and Lot, if I not confusing this situation with something else, Lot lived cause he was Abraham family not because of his own virtues.

One could say that god punishments spared perpetrator and targeted his family (not always, but still) - Saolomn and his breaking from monolatry, situation with David thay you mention, plagues in Egypt.

Agreed--I just used the term hippie (sarcastically) as a sharp contrast to God of the O.T. I didn't mean hippie in the sense of a tie-dyed, pot smoking, free love kind of Jesus lol.

And contrast is indeed shown. As for hippie Jesus, who knows maybe one with such characteristics would be better figure to follow Smile

Imagine Jesus saying - Thou shalt make love not war or making one, new commandment - Thou shalt not be asshole Smile

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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