What's Next For Apologetics?
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01-05-2015, 08:42 AM
RE: What's Next For Apologetics?
(01-05-2015 08:21 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(01-05-2015 08:09 AM)jennybee Wrote:  Lol very true. I wasn't trying to say Jesus was all unicorns and rainbows. I mean in Revelations (in particular), he is one scary dude lol..But in comparing him to God:

*God gets pissed at david for having an affair--So as punishment, God kills David's baby and has all of his wives raped by his son.

*God makes a bet with Satan and has all of Job's (a person who loved and obeyed God) family killed.

*God sends a plague on his people all because David took a census.

*God kills the first born in Egypt.

*Lot's wife turned into a pilar of salt.

*God smites someone for picking up sticks on the sabbath.

*God smites someone for trying to keep the ark from falling over.

*God smites someone for burning strange incense which was offensive to him.

I mean the list keeps going with god's killings in the O.T.--almost on every page. At least Jesus takes a break from being a prick and helps heal a few people along the way lol

In terms of Aaron and his golden calf--a little further along in the passage (Exodus 32) it says this:

25 Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies. 26 So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, “Whoever is for the Lord, come to me.” And all the Levites rallied to him.

27 Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’” 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29 Then Moses said, “You have been set apart to the Lord today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day.”

Sure, if one compare OT god with Jesus the Jesus is The Good Guy, but he is not love and raibows only.

As for Aaron, he himself wasn't hurt I believe. I meant that god while cruel was also strangely merciful, particulary to those he was familiar with - Abraham and Lot, if I not confusing this situation with something else, Lot lived cause he was Abraham family not because of his own virtues.

One could say that god punishments spared perpetrator and targeted his family (not always, but still) - Saolomn and his breaking from monolatry, situation with David thay you mention, plagues in Egypt.

(01-05-2015 08:17 AM)jennybee Wrote:  I didn't see that version of the translation. Very interesting Consider

As for satan/Satan - http://biblical-studies.ca/blog/2011/02/...ok-of-job/

Oh just saw your link--thank you Smile In the NIV--the version I usually read--Satan seems to be referred to as an actual character since God is having a conversation with him. But I will definitely check that link out!
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01-05-2015, 08:47 AM
RE: What's Next For Apologetics?
(01-05-2015 08:42 AM)jennybee Wrote:  
(01-05-2015 08:21 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Sure, if one compare OT god with Jesus the Jesus is The Good Guy, but he is not love and raibows only.

As for Aaron, he himself wasn't hurt I believe. I meant that god while cruel was also strangely merciful, particulary to those he was familiar with - Abraham and Lot, if I not confusing this situation with something else, Lot lived cause he was Abraham family not because of his own virtues.

One could say that god punishments spared perpetrator and targeted his family (not always, but still) - Saolomn and his breaking from monolatry, situation with David thay you mention, plagues in Egypt.


As for satan/Satan - http://biblical-studies.ca/blog/2011/02/...ok-of-job/

Oh just saw your link--thank you Smile In the NIV--the version I usually read--Satan seems to be referred to as an actual character since God is having a conversation with him. But I will definitely check that link out!

I am happy to help Smile After all why shouldn't I try to help others in expanding their knowledge.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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01-05-2015, 08:51 AM
RE: What's Next For Apologetics?
(01-05-2015 08:42 AM)jennybee Wrote:  
(01-05-2015 08:21 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Sure, if one compare OT god with Jesus the Jesus is The Good Guy, but he is not love and raibows only.

As for Aaron, he himself wasn't hurt I believe. I meant that god while cruel was also strangely merciful, particulary to those he was familiar with - Abraham and Lot, if I not confusing this situation with something else, Lot lived cause he was Abraham family not because of his own virtues.

One could say that god punishments spared perpetrator and targeted his family (not always, but still) - Saolomn and his breaking from monolatry, situation with David thay you mention, plagues in Egypt.


As for satan/Satan - http://biblical-studies.ca/blog/2011/02/...ok-of-job/

Oh just saw your link--thank you Smile In the NIV--the version I usually read--Satan seems to be referred to as an actual character since God is having a conversation with him. But I will definitely check that link out!

According to the link, most translations (incorrectly) use "Satan" rather than "the satan", so now I'm wondering where I saw "the satan". I have a whole bunch of different translations, but the ones I've looked at recently have been the NAB (Catholic), Douay-Rheims (also Catholic, but much older), the KJV, and the RSV. I will have to check those when I get home.
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01-05-2015, 09:00 AM (This post was last modified: 01-05-2015 09:05 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: What's Next For Apologetics?
(01-05-2015 08:51 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(01-05-2015 08:42 AM)jennybee Wrote:  Oh just saw your link--thank you Smile In the NIV--the version I usually read--Satan seems to be referred to as an actual character since God is having a conversation with him. But I will definitely check that link out!

According to the link, most translations (incorrectly) use "Satan" rather than "the satan", so now I'm wondering where I saw "the satan". I have a whole bunch of different translations, but the ones I've looked at recently have been the NAB (Catholic), Douay-Rheims (also Catholic, but much older), the KJV, and the RSV. I will have to check those when I get home.

I do not know how this look in english translation, but polish version, one of the oldest edition called The Bible of Jakub Wujek (Biblia Jakuba Wujka) which was completed and authorized for use ind 1599 uses "satan", as in:
Quote:A niektórego dnia, gdy przyszli synowie Boży, aby stali przed Panem, był téż między nimi i szatan
Corresponding quote comes from Bible of King James but "satan" is changed to "Satan":
Quote:Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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01-05-2015, 09:18 AM
RE: What's Next For Apologetics?
(01-05-2015 09:00 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(01-05-2015 08:51 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  According to the link, most translations (incorrectly) use "Satan" rather than "the satan", so now I'm wondering where I saw "the satan". I have a whole bunch of different translations, but the ones I've looked at recently have been the NAB (Catholic), Douay-Rheims (also Catholic, but much older), the KJV, and the RSV. I will have to check those when I get home.

I do not know how this look in english translation, but polish version, one of the oldest edition called The Bible of Jakub Wujek (Biblia Jakuba Wujka) which was completed and authorized for use ind 1599 uses "satan", as in:
Quote:A niektórego dnia, gdy przyszli synowie Boży, aby stali przed Panem, był téż między nimi i szatan
Corresponding quote comes from Bible of King James but "satan" is changed to "Satan":
Quote:Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

From Christine Hayes, O.T. scholar, professor at Yale: (The whole lecture on Job starts at 19:00 mark. *The satan* part is at the 25:00 mark. If anyone is interested ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxENRH-v0Xk
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01-05-2015, 09:31 AM
RE: What's Next For Apologetics?
(01-05-2015 09:18 AM)jennybee Wrote:  
(01-05-2015 09:00 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  I do not know how this look in english translation, but polish version, one of the oldest edition called The Bible of Jakub Wujek (Biblia Jakuba Wujka) which was completed and authorized for use ind 1599 uses "satan", as in:
Corresponding quote comes from Bible of King James but "satan" is changed to "Satan":

From Christine Hayes, O.T. scholar, professor at Yale: (The whole lecture on Job starts at 19:00 mark. *The satan* part is at the 25:00 mark. If anyone is interested ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxENRH-v0Xk

Satan as some kind of "advocatus diaboli" and member of god host. I think it make more sense than Satan as cause of evil whom supposedly benevolent god tolerate for some reason. But then I suppose theodicy calls for other being that can be blamed for evil, so god can appear clean.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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01-05-2015, 09:39 AM
RE: What's Next For Apologetics?
(01-05-2015 09:31 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(01-05-2015 09:18 AM)jennybee Wrote:  From Christine Hayes, O.T. scholar, professor at Yale: (The whole lecture on Job starts at 19:00 mark. *The satan* part is at the 25:00 mark. If anyone is interested ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxENRH-v0Xk

Satan as some kind of "advocatus diaboli" and member of god host. I think it make more sense than Satan as cause of evil whom supposedly benevolent god tolerate for some reason. But then I suppose theodicy calls for other being that can be blamed for evil, so god can appear clean.

Yeah, that was my take on it, anyway. Big Grin She has a really good lecture series--btw--not just on Job.
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01-05-2015, 09:43 AM
RE: What's Next For Apologetics?
(01-05-2015 09:39 AM)jennybee Wrote:  
(01-05-2015 09:31 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Satan as some kind of "advocatus diaboli" and member of god host. I think it make more sense than Satan as cause of evil whom supposedly benevolent god tolerate for some reason. But then I suppose theodicy calls for other being that can be blamed for evil, so god can appear clean.

Yeah, that was my take on it, anyway. Big Grin She has a really good lecture series--btw--not just on Job.

It's good take but it still leave room for a lot of questions. Omnibenevolence doesen't really leave room for sensible interpretation especially when coupled with omnipotence.

As for the rest of lectures I already know, I think you even made thread about them.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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01-05-2015, 09:46 AM
RE: What's Next For Apologetics?
(01-05-2015 09:43 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(01-05-2015 09:39 AM)jennybee Wrote:  Yeah, that was my take on it, anyway. Big Grin She has a really good lecture series--btw--not just on Job.

It's good take but it still leave room for a lot of questions. Omnibenevolence doesen't really leave room for sensible interpretation especially when coupled with omnipotence.

As for the rest of lectures I already know, I think you even made thread about them.

Yes, can u tell I am a fan of her lectures? lol...
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01-05-2015, 09:51 AM
RE: What's Next For Apologetics?
(01-05-2015 09:46 AM)jennybee Wrote:  
(01-05-2015 09:43 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  It's good take but it still leave room for a lot of questions. Omnibenevolence doesen't really leave room for sensible interpretation especially when coupled with omnipotence.

As for the rest of lectures I already know, I think you even made thread about them.

Yes, can u tell I am a fan of her lectures? lol...

I suppose you are considering what have you written about them Smile

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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