What's more important: critical thinking or relationships?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
12-10-2015, 07:17 PM
What's more important: critical thinking or relationships?
I'm not sure if this should be 2 separate posts, but they are kinda connected. So I do apologies, if I's confusing.

Today I had an email from a friend ending our friendship. To be fair we were drifting apart for a very long time: we live on the opposite sides of the planet, we have completely different styles of life and for the last year or two completely different ways of thinking. She started to get into these anti-establishment, anti-capitalism, new age, crystal healing, esoteric brainwave mind altering stuff. And I would always try to get some evidence based approach from her, and all I get is: oh, you should watch this doco I found online.

Our latest fall out happened over veganism. She watched "earthling" doco, and turned vegan. When I asked for some data she based her decision on, I was sent the doco itself, and then a presentation by some vegan, that if you eat chicken eggs, you eat chicken period. Now, being a stubborn and very scrupulous person, I read and researched so much into the issue, sustainable farming and all that stuff, that I drove my husband and friends nuts. I emailed her all of the data I found, plus my personal view. Now, I'll admit, that the tone of my letter could've been softer. And I'm really sorry and I feel very bad about it, cause I did offend her. But the end result is that she doesn't feel like we could be friends anymore, and we have nothing in common. Which is very sad, but it is true.

I am yet so absorb the loss of my friend, and I am going to write a very loving good bey letter to her. But I'm just so hurt by the loss of the person, who had such a great impact on my life. If not for her, I wouldn't be where I am now. I wouldn't be a wife to the most kind, amazing, loving man. I wouldn't be a mother to the most beautiful girl in the world. She was a maid of honour at our wedding, and she scarified so much to be with us on this special day. I miss her, I miss old us so much.

So here's my question, is it worth to be right, to press with your point of view, to promote the critical, logical thinking. Or do you preserve the relationships and let the person live with his or her delusions?
The reason I'm asking this question, is because I'm at this point with my mum. She's handout religious, and I've been pressing her for answers. And I got her to the point where she can't answer, she resorted to the last defence, that she believes god and bible because it makes her happy. And why do I constantly have to question things. Why does it matter so much to me that she reads bible. Why is it so important that she's not thinking critically.

I have so many reasons to give her why I think critical thinking is a necessity, why religion hurts our society. But shall I give them to her? I broke one relationship already with my desire to stick to the facts, to look at everything from a critical point of view. And I feel very bad, that I upset my friend; I do believe that I had sound reasoning, but was it worth it at the end?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-10-2015, 07:20 PM
RE: What's more important: critical thinking or relationships?
Critical thinking.

You can always start another pointless releationship with someone else who you really dont actualy care about to last for another 2 years and then walk on to the next person you dont really care about...

Grasping how pathetic and useless your entire existance is, is far more important!!!

[Image: RPYH95t.png]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-10-2015, 07:43 PM
RE: What's more important: critical thinking or relationships?
Just tell her you are sorry that you don't see things the same way, but one never knows what the future holds and your door will stay open.

There is a good chance she may snap out of it after a bit.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Dom's post
12-10-2015, 07:45 PM (This post was last modified: 12-10-2015 07:52 PM by yakherder.)
RE: What's more important: critical thinking or relationships?
Open critical thinking doesn't have to be a part of every relationship. We like to believe we can be honest at all times, but that just isn't the case. There are people with whom you can share your honest thoughts with, and many, many, many more people with whom relationship management is more tactical, figuring out which moves to make in order to achieve the desired objective. If you know the person is not likely to be an intellectual conversation partner based on past observations, then the next steps are to figure out what you still stand to gain, if anything, by continuing the relationship, what you have to do in order to achieve that objective, and whether or not it is worth the time and psychological investment.

I've got a small hand full of people I'm completely open to. With everyone else, they fall into the tactical relationship management category. That's the reality of living in a world that has chosen, for better or worse, to define itself by diversity and individualism.

'Murican Canadian
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 6 users Like yakherder's post
12-10-2015, 07:55 PM
RE: What's more important: critical thinking or relationships?
(12-10-2015 07:17 PM)Happy Wrote:  ... was it worth it at the end?

At the end of what?

There's the rub.

For you (and yours) now, the relationship matters more.

In a few centuries from now, it's humanity's overall body knowledge and how we attain that knowledge that matters most for future generations.

At the end on the Universe? Nothing matters.

Ain't nihilism a bitch?

But I don't think that this is your question. I think you are asking (yourself, via us) if there is a way to reconcile the two or achieve both.

The Germans (above) has answered you literally. Dom (above) spotted the deeper question.

By approaching these topics (your friend's and mother's belief) with data only is often a good way to bring out the defenses (a memetic immune system, if you like).

I've fucked up a few times by doing this.

The Socratic method produces more value. You may not get immediate results but you sow seeds by getting your friend / relative / opponent to think about the way they have arrived at their conclusions (epistemologically).

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes DLJ's post
12-10-2015, 10:29 PM
RE: What's more important: critical thinking or relationships?
Quote:Today I had an email from a friend ending our friendship. To be fair we were drifting apart for a very long time: we live on the opposite sides of the planet, we have completely different styles of life and for the last year or two completely different ways of thinking. She started to get into these anti-establishment, anti-capitalism, new age, crystal healing, esoteric brainwave mind altering stuff. And I would always try to get some evidence based approach from her, and all I get is: oh, you should watch this doco I found online.

I'm gonna stop you right there. This sounds like a clear case of the trash taking itself out.
Where's the issue?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like earmuffs's post
12-10-2015, 11:08 PM
RE: What's more important: critical thinking or relationships?
Meh, tell the person that you'll agree to disagree that you won't bring it up as long as she doesn't bring it up.
Let then cool down first before you contact her.

I don't really like going outside.
It's too damn "peopley" out there....
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Lightvader's post
12-10-2015, 11:34 PM
RE: What's more important: critical thinking or relationships?
(12-10-2015 07:17 PM)Happy Wrote:  So here's my question, is it worth to be right, to press with your point of view, to promote the critical, logical thinking. Or do you preserve the relationships and let the person live with his or her delusions?
The reason I'm asking this question, is because I'm at this point with my mum. She's handout religious, and I've been pressing her for answers. And I got her to the point where she can't answer, she resorted to the last defence, that she believes god and bible because it makes her happy. And why do I constantly have to question things. Why does it matter so much to me that she reads bible. Why is it so important that she's not thinking critically.

Quote:I have so many reasons to give her why I think critical thinking is a necessity, why religion hurts our society. But shall I give them to her? I broke one relationship already with my desire to stick to the facts, to look at everything from a critical point of view. And I feel very bad, that I upset my friend; I do believe that I had sound reasoning, but was it worth it at the end?

My choice is always to let people do their own thinking. If that leads them to woo woo bullshit that's fine. Relationships are more important than being right IMO. Yes, sound reasoning is important, but an undeniable fact of human nature is that you cannot change a person's mind, only *they* can, and while you can try to nudge them in the right direction it is they themselves who will have to decide.

I have several friends whom I like a lot, who are all complete nutters. We get on fine because they respect my boundaries (mostly) and I mostly leave them alone with regard to religion.

Now, it becomes more personal if it's your Mama. I'd keep a close eye and just make sure she's not being taken advantage of by some unscrupulous snake-oil merchant, and if she is try to expose *just him/her*, not the entire snake-oil movement.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like morondog's post
12-10-2015, 11:46 PM (This post was last modified: 13-10-2015 01:15 AM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: What's more important: critical thinking or relationships?
I'd apologize for the rough handling I gave her, and tell her that we don't have to agree on our views to be friends, so long as both parties respect that agreement.

As for your mother, I'd lay off trying to impart your views, myself. I consider my relationship with my mother much more important than her theism, and wouldn't think of picking a fight over it. I love her for who she is, and so long as she respects my ability and right to come to my own decision -- by not evangelizing (which she doesn't), her beliefs are her business, not mine.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Thumpalumpacus's post
13-10-2015, 01:49 AM
RE: What's more important: critical thinking or relationships?
If someone would say that my honesty or snark means that we can not be friends anymore then it certainly wouldn't be relationship that I would judge more important.

As for your mother you could try with arguments but for what purpose? She say belief make her happy, it isn't something that will change if you start talking about how religion damage society. If she isn't forcing her religion onto you then well it's her life.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Szuchow's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: