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What's your gender?
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04-06-2014, 02:34 PM
RE: What's your gender?
(04-06-2014 02:31 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  
(04-06-2014 02:25 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  So if someone has their ovaries removed then they are no longer a woman? What about a mastectomy? What about a hysterectomy? Do all of them have to be removed before you are no longer a woman? Do you become less of a woman with each one removed?

Are men no longer men if their testicles are cut off? What about male prostate glands?

By specifying that gender is determined by all the genitalia then you are just delaying the inevitable conclusion.

I expect you'll backtrack now and start including chromosomes as well.


No one is saying that gender is a choice.

Parts of the female genitalia

Vagina

Cervix

Uterus

Fallopian tube

Ovaries

Reproductive tract

mons pubis

pudendal cleft

labia majora

Bartholin's glands

clitoris

Remove all of these and add all the male parts and then I will say you can change gender.

Also if gender is not choice what is it.

http://www.med.monash.edu.au/gendermed/s...ender.html
Read the part that explains gender Smile

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04-06-2014, 02:35 PM
RE: What's your gender?
(04-06-2014 02:31 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  
(04-06-2014 02:25 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  So if someone has their ovaries removed then they are no longer a woman? What about a mastectomy? What about a hysterectomy? Do all of them have to be removed before you are no longer a woman? Do you become less of a woman with each one removed?

Are men no longer men if their testicles are cut off? What about male prostate glands?

By specifying that gender is determined by all the genitalia then you are just delaying the inevitable conclusion.

I expect you'll backtrack now and start including chromosomes as well.


No one is saying that gender is a choice.

Parts of the female genitalia

Vagina

Cervix

Uterus

Fallopian tube

Ovaries

Reproductive tract

mons pubis

pudendal cleft

labia majora

Bartholin's glands

clitoris

Remove all of these and add all the male parts and then I will say you can change gender.

Those parts are sex, not gender.

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04-06-2014, 02:36 PM
RE: What's your gender?
I wonder when ThePaleolithicFreethinker chose to be their current gender?
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04-06-2014, 02:38 PM
RE: What's your gender?
(04-06-2014 02:26 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  
(04-06-2014 02:24 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  Genitalia has nothing to do with gender.
http://www.med.monash.edu.au/gendermed/s...ender.html

So let me get this straight, I get to choose weather I am a man or woman because of personality. Do I get to be Hispanic because I like Hispanic culture?

Mind shit =/= body shit. Hard to grasp?

Penis =/= male. Gender is social construct kinda. Historically penis -> man -> expected to conform to social male role. BUT exceptions e.g. several Egyptian queens IIRC. No penis but expected to dress and act as male - is male as *social* convention.

Similarly man (avec penis) can be expected to conform to *female* gender role.

Nowadays also are people who prefer to dress/act as one gender but have wedding tackle traditionally associated with other gender == transsexual. Is *another* gender kinda.

Basically fighting about word defs. Word defs are scummy thing to argue about. No one owns them, so is only by *convention* they have meaning that they do. Meaning changes over time. One time gender of man or male role or whatever was definitely in a one-one relationship with penis, at least in Western society. But Western society is fucked up anyway, so why the fuck not make it just a convention and people *can* choose?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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04-06-2014, 02:38 PM
RE: What's your gender?
(04-06-2014 02:30 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  
(04-06-2014 02:26 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  So let me get this straight, I get to choose weather I am a man or woman because of personality. Do I get to be Hispanic because I like Hispanic culture?

Race and gender are not the same. Learn the definitions.

Also, gender isn't a choice just because it's not determined by genitals doesn't mean people choose their gender any more than they choose their sexual orientation.

Let me put it into perspective. Race=Sex(for the sake of argument) asian=male culture=gender hispanic=female.

"I am asian, however I am getting tired of being asian. Because of this I want to be hispanic because the hispanic culture is better. I am not asian anymore I am hispanic."


Replace all my words with the ones it equals and it is the same. He can be asian, and even go around and say he is hispanic. However he is not hispanic, and the hispanic culture is not his, despite the fact he can join it.

I can't say weather sexual orientation is a choice because it is a complicated subject. If you are going to claim that gender is something you are born with and has nothing to do with genitalia then I want the peer reviewed paper that proves your point.

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04-06-2014, 02:38 PM
RE: What's your gender?
(04-06-2014 02:31 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  Parts of the female genitalia

Vagina

Cervix

Uterus

Fallopian tube

Ovaries

Reproductive tract

mons pubis

pudendal cleft

labia majora

Bartholin's glands

clitoris

Remove all of these and add all the male parts and then I will say you can change gender.

And is that a useful definition?

Do you really think that if you did that to a woman and replaced them with male parts that they would then think and act like men despite all the scientific evidence to the contrary?


Quote:Also if gender is not choice what is it.

Based on the limited resolution of our brain scans all we can recognise so far is relatively greater or lesser development in specific parts of the brain.
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04-06-2014, 02:40 PM
RE: What's your gender?
(04-06-2014 02:38 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(04-06-2014 02:26 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  So let me get this straight, I get to choose weather I am a man or woman because of personality. Do I get to be Hispanic because I like Hispanic culture?

Mind shit =/= body shit. Hard to grasp?

Penis =/= male. Gender is social construct kinda. Historically penis -> man -> expected to conform to social male role. BUT exceptions e.g. several Egyptian queens IIRC. No penis but expected to dress and act as male - is male as *social* convention.

Similarly man (avec penis) can be expected to conform to *female* gender role.

Nowadays also are people who prefer to dress/act as one gender but have wedding tackle traditionally associated with other gender == transsexual. Is *another* gender kinda.

Basically fighting about word defs. Word defs are scummy thing to argue about. No one owns them, so is only by *convention* they have meaning that they do. Meaning changes over time. One time gender of man or male role or whatever was definitely in a one-one relationship with penis, at least in Western society. But Western society is fucked up anyway, so why the fuck not make it just a convention and people *can* choose?

the male genital organ of higher vertebrates, carrying the duct for the transfer of sperm during copulation. In humans and most other mammals, it consists largely of erectile tissue and serves also for the elimination of urine.

So penis does equal male. I agree about definitions. As everyone has told me over the years gender is determined by the genitalia you are born with. I only every heard the gender is a choice argument from people who were afraid to say they were gay.

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04-06-2014, 02:42 PM
RE: What's your gender?
(04-06-2014 01:42 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  
(04-06-2014 01:38 PM)LadyJane Wrote:  I don't think you understand the development of the sexual organ and how during some (more common than rarely) development for some individuals (this is not unique to humans, it is in nature in other species as well) have a genetic (physical) psychological discontent with their outward sexual organ and who they feel they are (M/F) due to the influence and exposure of hormones prenatally (and naturally).

So does that mean I get to change my testicals into ovaries because I want to be female? No. Again, it is all about sexual organs. As I said before, if you act like a girl, talk like a girl, and walk like a girl, but have male genitalia and the parts that go with it you are a male.

I understand *you* wouldn't feel female, because from the sounds of it you don't originally.

Say you know someone who was born female but felt they were male. They went through the process of switching their external organ to match how they perceived they should be. Now, they have a penis and their breasts appear male and they are happy and feel 100% male.

What gender are they?
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04-06-2014, 02:43 PM
RE: What's your gender?
(04-06-2014 02:38 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  I can't say weather sexual orientation is a choice because it is a complicated subject.

So you can't say whether sexual orientation is a choice because it is a complicated subject but you are quite happy to be very specific about gender which is an even more complicated subject because it encompasses the entirety of the brain rather than a specific emotional drive?

(04-06-2014 02:38 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  If you are going to claim that gender is something you are born with and has nothing to do with genitalia then I want the peer reviewed paper that proves your point.

You mean the loads of peer reviewed papers that have already been posted on here?

And "proves your point" ? You know science doesn't work that way. It's evidence and it's enough of it building up now over several decades pointing to gender identity is something that you are born with and does not necessarily match the development of the genitalia.
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04-06-2014, 02:44 PM
RE: What's your gender?
(04-06-2014 02:40 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  I only every heard the gender is a choice argument from people who were afraid to say they were gay.


Strawman again.
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