What should a god do ?
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28-01-2015, 11:27 AM
RE: What should a god do ?
(27-01-2015 01:55 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
The Q Continuum ' Wrote:  The Christian rubric is that the world is not all God planned for it but is off-kilter on a temporary basis because he chose to not abrogate human free will.

Except, of course where he DID screw with free will. But we'll just ignore that because it doesn't support my statement.

I'm open minded. What time/place/thing are you considering where God changed free will?

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28-01-2015, 12:10 PM (This post was last modified: 28-01-2015 12:15 PM by ClydeLee.)
RE: What should a god do ?
(28-01-2015 11:27 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(27-01-2015 01:55 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  Except, of course where he DID screw with free will. But we'll just ignore that because it doesn't support my statement.

I'm open minded. What time/place/thing are you considering where God changed free will?

How about the simple case of Hardening the Pharaohs heart so he wouldn't change his mind? That's not altering the Pharaoh's free will how?

Or how about an action like Onan dying because he disobeyed God? That's having free will? Disobey and you die? I suppose that one MAY be still free-will but a shaky ground of it. The lack of ability to choose of the Pharaoh though is very unrecognizable with free will.

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28-01-2015, 12:25 PM
RE: What should a god do ?
(28-01-2015 12:10 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Or how about an action like Onan dying because he disobeyed God? That's having free will? Disobey and you die? I suppose that one MAY be still free-will but a shaky ground of it.

That's the protection racket approach ("nice little life you have there, be a shame if anything happened to it") or the holdup approach ("give me your worship, don't make me kill you").

God gets to take it one better though since after he gives you free will he gets to torture you forever if you make choices he doesn't like. Don Corleone has nothing on Don Yahweh.

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28-01-2015, 12:27 PM
RE: What should a god do ?
(28-01-2015 11:27 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I'm open minded. What time/place/thing are you considering where God changed free will?

Is god omniscint?
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28-01-2015, 12:32 PM
RE: What should a god do ?
(28-01-2015 12:10 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(28-01-2015 11:27 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I'm open minded. What time/place/thing are you considering where God changed free will?

How about the simple case of Hardening the Pharaohs heart so he wouldn't change his mind? That's not altering the Pharaoh's free will how?

Or how about an action like Onan dying because he disobeyed God? That's having free will? Disobey and you die? I suppose that one MAY be still free-will but a shaky ground of it. The lack of ability to choose of the Pharaoh though is very unrecognizable with free will.

Q will just do his interpretation dance again to change those uncomfortable parts of the bible that don't match his concept of god. Keep hiding behind that Q, maybe you can keep convincing yourself.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

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29-01-2015, 04:26 AM
RE: What should a god do ?
(28-01-2015 12:27 PM)H4ym4n Wrote:  
(28-01-2015 11:27 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I'm open minded. What time/place/thing are you considering where God changed free will?

Is god omniscient



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29-01-2015, 10:01 AM
RE: What should a god do ?
(28-01-2015 11:27 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(27-01-2015 01:55 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  Except, of course where he DID screw with free will. But we'll just ignore that because it doesn't support my statement.

I'm open minded. What time/place/thing are you considering where God changed free will?

Are you serious? Laughat If you don't know, do some research. You can't expect people to do it for you. For someone who is open minded, you endeavor to not fill it. I suggest you start with all the times he hardened someone's heart so they would do what he wanted.

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The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
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29-01-2015, 12:52 PM
RE: What should a god do ?
(28-01-2015 12:10 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(28-01-2015 11:27 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I'm open minded. What time/place/thing are you considering where God changed free will?

How about the simple case of Hardening the Pharaohs heart so he wouldn't change his mind? That's not altering the Pharaoh's free will how?

Or how about an action like Onan dying because he disobeyed God? That's having free will? Disobey and you die? I suppose that one MAY be still free-will but a shaky ground of it. The lack of ability to choose of the Pharaoh though is very unrecognizable with free will.

1. The Hebrew is as I understand it "God tested [not hardened] Pharoah's heart." The phrase is like "squeezed Pharoah's heart to see what's inside". The squeezing was the plagues, Moses and Aaron preaching, the Egyptians saying things to Pharoah (that would have been super in the Bale movie) like "Don't you know Egypt is destroyed?! Let Moses's people go...!"

2. Having free will IS to disobey and die (sometimes). Isn't it? For example, suicide, regardless of its legality or perceived morality or immorality, literally rests on free will. If I choose to use my free will to base jump without safety equipment for example.

The Q asked, "What is suicide called when it isn't your free will?"

The Q answered, "Murder."

Here's the deal... You can say Onan disobeyed God and God murdered him if you prefer. But Onan didn't die for masturbation (no lose his eyesight). He died because rather than raising a family with his brother's spouse he used (a form of contraception). Sounds almost... Catholic?

Perhaps you believe God shouldn't kill someone for disobeying this ideal. But certainly Onan is an example. (Like, we be talking about him, like, right now.)

Also, we don't know what else Onan did. Say he's out at the chariot matches Wednesday night when Tom or Richard Petty (yes, I'm being silly) jumps a ramp and takes him out. Onan was some piece of garbage drug dealer doing a deal down at the matches and God posts the headline ONAN WITHHOLDS, DIES. NEWS AT ELEVEN...

...But let me stop you! If you're about to say "God punishes people strongly," I know that. It's a motivation to witness the gospel to others.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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29-01-2015, 02:22 PM
RE: What should a god do ?
(29-01-2015 12:52 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(28-01-2015 12:10 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  How about the simple case of Hardening the Pharaohs heart so he wouldn't change his mind? That's not altering the Pharaoh's free will how?

Or how about an action like Onan dying because he disobeyed God? That's having free will? Disobey and you die? I suppose that one MAY be still free-will but a shaky ground of it. The lack of ability to choose of the Pharaoh though is very unrecognizable with free will.

1. The Hebrew is as I understand it "God tested [not hardened] Pharoah's heart." The phrase is like "squeezed Pharoah's heart to see what's inside". The squeezing was the plagues, Moses and Aaron preaching, the Egyptians saying things to Pharoah (that would have been super in the Bale movie) like "Don't you know Egypt is destroyed?! Let Moses's people go...!"

2. Having free will IS to disobey and die (sometimes). Isn't it? For example, suicide, regardless of its legality or perceived morality or immorality, literally rests on free will. If I choose to use my free will to base jump without safety equipment for example.

The Q asked, "What is suicide called when it isn't your free will?"

The Q answered, "Murder."

Here's the deal... You can say Onan disobeyed God and God murdered him if you prefer. But Onan didn't die for masturbation (no lose his eyesight). He died because rather than raising a family with his brother's spouse he used (a form of contraception). Sounds almost... Catholic?

Perhaps you believe God shouldn't kill someone for disobeying this ideal. But certainly Onan is an example. (Like, we be talking about him, like, right now.)

Also, we don't know what else Onan did. Say he's out at the chariot matches Wednesday night when Tom or Richard Petty (yes, I'm being silly) jumps a ramp and takes him out. Onan was some piece of garbage drug dealer doing a deal down at the matches and God posts the headline ONAN WITHHOLDS, DIES. NEWS AT ELEVEN...

...But let me stop you! If you're about to say "God punishes people strongly," I know that. It's a motivation to witness the gospel to others.

If you start speculating Onan did something else then the concept of the punishment or truth of the text is more in question. It wouldn't be a deliberately accurate telling in that case since it blames his death on that action.

But how did Onan even know that was a risky action to be feared? God never told of some concept that you must keep your families lineage alive. Yes, but that's the story where Catholics take that idea from; which is well known not some surprising revelation. He never "disobeyed" Gods ideal, how can you disobey something you weren't told to obey? Onan's father told him to do it, not god. I wasn't gonna say anything of god punishing strongly.. you're making assumptions now; way to be a logical person. And do you have proof of this Hebrew meaning?

BTW, Onan was killed for "contraception" that doesn't even work! "Pulling out" as described there is known to be a flawed method because of semen spreading in precum. The concept of punishing him for it was idiotic because it's an example of the biblical texts not understanding human biology. If Onan was killed for this, the thoughts that he was getting out of it is what he would of been killed for by a biologically understanding God. That's actually a shaky free-will question, is free will having thoughts? Because Onans actions there don't change anything.

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29-01-2015, 03:06 PM (This post was last modified: 29-01-2015 09:51 PM by The Organic Chemist.)
RE: What should a god do ?
[quote='The Q Continuum' pid='728236'
The Q asked, "What is suicide called when it isn't your free will?"

The Q answered, "Murder."
[/quote]

I agree. So the body count that god racked up WAS murder after all? Well that is progress of a kind. BTW, that apologist crap you are drooling does not justify killing peope trying to keep the ark from falling or for simply bringing the wrong kind of fire to the alter. Fire is fire, gawd should know that.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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