What should a god do ?
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29-01-2015, 06:35 PM
RE: What should a god do ?
(29-01-2015 12:52 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(28-01-2015 12:10 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  How about the simple case of Hardening the Pharaohs heart so he wouldn't change his mind? That's not altering the Pharaoh's free will how?

Or how about an action like Onan dying because he disobeyed God? That's having free will? Disobey and you die? I suppose that one MAY be still free-will but a shaky ground of it. The lack of ability to choose of the Pharaoh though is very unrecognizable with free will.

1. The Hebrew is as I understand it "God tested [not hardened] Pharoah's heart." The phrase is like "squeezed Pharoah's heart to see what's inside". The squeezing was the plagues, Moses and Aaron preaching, the Egyptians saying things to Pharoah (that would have been super in the Bale movie) like "Don't you know Egypt is destroyed?! Let Moses's people go...!"

2. Having free will IS to disobey and die (sometimes). Isn't it? For example, suicide, regardless of its legality or perceived morality or immorality, literally rests on free will. If I choose to use my free will to base jump without safety equipment for example.

The Q asked, "What is suicide called when it isn't your free will?"

The Q answered, "Murder."

Here's the deal... You can say Onan disobeyed God and God murdered him if you prefer. But Onan didn't die for masturbation (no lose his eyesight). He died because rather than raising a family with his brother's spouse he used (a form of contraception). Sounds almost... Catholic?

Perhaps you believe God shouldn't kill someone for disobeying this ideal. But certainly Onan is an example. (Like, we be talking about him, like, right now.)

Also, we don't know what else Onan did. Say he's out at the chariot matches Wednesday night when Tom or Richard Petty (yes, I'm being silly) jumps a ramp and takes him out. Onan was some piece of garbage drug dealer doing a deal down at the matches and God posts the headline ONAN WITHHOLDS, DIES. NEWS AT ELEVEN...

...But let me stop you! If you're about to say "God punishes people strongly," I know that. It's a motivation to witness the gospel to others.
Why does an omniscient god need to test anything?

Answer: Because the MEN who created this imaginary being don't have a consistent narrative about what this entity is. Hell, they can't even decide what name to call him.

Free will is simply your excuse for a murderous monster, but somehow making humans the reason for god's evil doesn't wash with rational people. We're waiting for you to simply rejoin the human race and be appalled by this monster -like any human with empathy should!

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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29-01-2015, 06:49 PM
RE: What should a god do ?
Make me King of Earth, obviously! Tongue

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29-01-2015, 08:24 PM
RE: What should a god do ?
Have a concert, duh. Tongue




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30-01-2015, 02:18 PM
RE: What should a god do ?
(29-01-2015 02:22 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(29-01-2015 12:52 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. The Hebrew is as I understand it "God tested [not hardened] Pharoah's heart." The phrase is like "squeezed Pharoah's heart to see what's inside". The squeezing was the plagues, Moses and Aaron preaching, the Egyptians saying things to Pharoah (that would have been super in the Bale movie) like "Don't you know Egypt is destroyed?! Let Moses's people go...!"

2. Having free will IS to disobey and die (sometimes). Isn't it? For example, suicide, regardless of its legality or perceived morality or immorality, literally rests on free will. If I choose to use my free will to base jump without safety equipment for example.

The Q asked, "What is suicide called when it isn't your free will?"

The Q answered, "Murder."

Here's the deal... You can say Onan disobeyed God and God murdered him if you prefer. But Onan didn't die for masturbation (no lose his eyesight). He died because rather than raising a family with his brother's spouse he used (a form of contraception). Sounds almost... Catholic?

Perhaps you believe God shouldn't kill someone for disobeying this ideal. But certainly Onan is an example. (Like, we be talking about him, like, right now.)

Also, we don't know what else Onan did. Say he's out at the chariot matches Wednesday night when Tom or Richard Petty (yes, I'm being silly) jumps a ramp and takes him out. Onan was some piece of garbage drug dealer doing a deal down at the matches and God posts the headline ONAN WITHHOLDS, DIES. NEWS AT ELEVEN...

...But let me stop you! If you're about to say "God punishes people strongly," I know that. It's a motivation to witness the gospel to others.

If you start speculating Onan did something else then the concept of the punishment or truth of the text is more in question. It wouldn't be a deliberately accurate telling in that case since it blames his death on that action.

But how did Onan even know that was a risky action to be feared? God never told of some concept that you must keep your families lineage alive. Yes, but that's the story where Catholics take that idea from; which is well known not some surprising revelation. He never "disobeyed" Gods ideal, how can you disobey something you weren't told to obey? Onan's father told him to do it, not god. I wasn't gonna say anything of god punishing strongly.. you're making assumptions now; way to be a logical person. And do you have proof of this Hebrew meaning?

BTW, Onan was killed for "contraception" that doesn't even work! "Pulling out" as described there is known to be a flawed method because of semen spreading in precum. The concept of punishing him for it was idiotic because it's an example of the biblical texts not understanding human biology. If Onan was killed for this, the thoughts that he was getting out of it is what he would of been killed for by a biologically understanding God. That's actually a shaky free-will question, is free will having thoughts? Because Onans actions there don't change anything.

Of course you are correct. The Bible does not say he "followed his wife's cycles" or used what we would call the rhythm method. For all we know, he was doing something other than halting coitus--what the NASB says is the euphemism "when he went into his wife, he spilled his seed on the ground". Regardless of the sex act they were doing, it was not solo masturbation (mutual masturbation by definition should be "sex" IMHO) and that was my point.

I'd like people to appreciate the difference, since I find God of course can be harsh in punishment but also eminently fair, between God killing someone for masturbating and God killing someone for 1) promising his spouse something he "withdrew" and 2) disobeying Judah, his father, and 3) lying to God. God spoke clearly to Onan's grandfather, it's not like Onan grew up in some home distant from God. What Onan thought he could get away with in private with his spouse God saw, and punished. Also, and this is HUGE for the concept that the OT and NT were written together by God rather than in two compartments, since Jesus comes from Judah Onan's action to halt all children threatens the Messianic line of descent itself. Subtle, but true. The whole Bible connects.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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30-01-2015, 02:21 PM
RE: What should a god do ?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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30-01-2015, 02:24 PM
RE: What should a god do ?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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30-01-2015, 02:27 PM
RE: What should a god do ?
[/quote]
Why does an omniscient god need to test anything?

Answer: Because the MEN who created this imaginary being don't have a consistent narrative about what this entity is. Hell, they can't even decide what name to call him.

Free will is simply your excuse for a murderous monster, but somehow making humans the reason for god's evil doesn't wash with rational people. We're waiting for you to simply rejoin the human race and be appalled by this monster -like any human with empathy should!
[/quote]

I would say a natural outcome of empathy is God's desire to kill Jesus for us and the Christian desire to share the good news with others.

But yes, it is not needed for an omniscient being to test anyone--other than some moral imperatives:

1. It doesn't seem fair to send someone to Hell for sin unless they get free will to sin or not and get to enjoy their sinning, for a time, anyway. I find the Bible speaks of such things.

2. We would expect God to send multiple witnesses to the lost--the Bible speaks of many witnesses from the beauty of creation and the order of creation and so on down to, well, way down to, The Q and their ilk.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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30-01-2015, 10:08 PM
RE: What should a god do ?
(30-01-2015 02:18 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(29-01-2015 02:22 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  If you start speculating Onan did something else then the concept of the punishment or truth of the text is more in question. It wouldn't be a deliberately accurate telling in that case since it blames his death on that action.

But how did Onan even know that was a risky action to be feared? God never told of some concept that you must keep your families lineage alive. Yes, but that's the story where Catholics take that idea from; which is well known not some surprising revelation. He never "disobeyed" Gods ideal, how can you disobey something you weren't told to obey? Onan's father told him to do it, not god. I wasn't gonna say anything of god punishing strongly.. you're making assumptions now; way to be a logical person. And do you have proof of this Hebrew meaning?

BTW, Onan was killed for "contraception" that doesn't even work! "Pulling out" as described there is known to be a flawed method because of semen spreading in precum. The concept of punishing him for it was idiotic because it's an example of the biblical texts not understanding human biology. If Onan was killed for this, the thoughts that he was getting out of it is what he would of been killed for by a biologically understanding God. That's actually a shaky free-will question, is free will having thoughts? Because Onans actions there don't change anything.

Of course you are correct. The Bible does not say he "followed his wife's cycles" or used what we would call the rhythm method. For all we know, he was doing something other than halting coitus--what the NASB says is the euphemism "when he went into his wife, he spilled his seed on the ground". Regardless of the sex act they were doing, it was not solo masturbation (mutual masturbation by definition should be "sex" IMHO) and that was my point.

I'd like people to appreciate the difference, since I find God of course can be harsh in punishment but also eminently fair, between God killing someone for masturbating and God killing someone for 1) promising his spouse something he "withdrew" and 2) disobeying Judah, his father, and 3) lying to God. God spoke clearly to Onan's grandfather, it's not like Onan grew up in some home distant from God. What Onan thought he could get away with in private with his spouse God saw, and punished. Also, and this is HUGE for the concept that the OT and NT were written together by God rather than in two compartments, since Jesus comes from Judah Onan's action to halt all children threatens the Messianic line of descent itself. Subtle, but true. The whole Bible connects.

That's not at all a case for God having written it because it's biologically inaccurate. God should know Onan's act of withdrawing and spilling his seed wouldn't really alter the probability of her getting pregnant. So he didn't Disobey "thinks" he was but he actually wasn't by action. That's why his question of free will is deeply concerning. Punishment for thoughts isn't giving free will.

But as something written by people without any special knowledge other than being of that iron age era... it makes perfect sense for them to think of it that way. They really didn't know in detail all that much about reproduction.

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02-02-2015, 02:37 PM (This post was last modified: 03-02-2015 09:48 AM by The Q Continuum.)
RE: What should a god do ?
(30-01-2015 10:08 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(30-01-2015 02:18 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Of course you are correct. The Bible does not say he "followed his wife's cycles" or used what we would call the rhythm method. For all we know, he was doing something other than halting coitus--what the NASB says is the euphemism "when he went into his wife, he spilled his seed on the ground". Regardless of the sex act they were doing, it was not solo masturbation (mutual masturbation by definition should be "sex" IMHO) and that was my point.

I'd like people to appreciate the difference, since I find God of course can be harsh in punishment but also eminently fair, between God killing someone for masturbating and God killing someone for 1) promising his spouse something he "withdrew" and 2) disobeying Judah, his father, and 3) lying to God. God spoke clearly to Onan's grandfather, it's not like Onan grew up in some home distant from God. What Onan thought he could get away with in private with his spouse God saw, and punished. Also, and this is HUGE for the concept that the OT and NT were written together by God rather than in two compartments, since Jesus comes from Judah Onan's action to halt all children threatens the Messianic line of descent itself. Subtle, but true. The whole Bible connects.

That's not at all a case for God having written it because it's biologically inaccurate. God should know Onan's act of withdrawing and spilling his seed wouldn't really alter the probability of her getting pregnant. So he didn't Disobey "thinks" he was but he actually wasn't by action. That's why his question of free will is deeply concerning. Punishment for thoughts isn't giving free will.

But as something written by people without any special knowledge other than being of that iron age era... it makes perfect sense for them to think of it that way. They really didn't know in detail all that much about reproduction.

Not the Bible but I wrote "withdrawal" as a gentle euphemism. They could have been having mutual masturbation or oral sex instead, where his seed eventually was discarded.

Further, if ONAN thought what he was doing would prevent pregnancy, God punished his willful disobedience and not his scientific accuracy. Onan did something hoping to pull a fast one (pun not intended).

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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