What sort of evidence would it take for atheists to believe in a creator?
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28-01-2014, 11:55 PM
RE: What sort of evidence would it take for atheists to believe in a creator?
The argument that you're making is that we have *decided* that there is no God and therefore no evidence will convince us.

The problem is that the evidence put forward is weak.

I grew up as a Christian. God is claimed to have certain attributes, especially in the old testament. He talks to war leaders, talks to people, fights with them, appears as a pillar of fire, tells people stuff that's gonna happen and it actually happens.

Now, if God was to continue in this fashion, that makes a certain amount of sense. *Now* if you came to me with a God who does all these things I'd be much more skeptical and inclined to suspect a trick but if God of the Bible had at least performed as advertised then yeah, we could say that at least what was described in the Bible matched with reality as we experience it.

Instead what we have is a bunch of extra stuff tacked on to the Bible, *explanations* for why God of the Bible and current alleged lord of the universe act so differently.

I have nothing special against the idea of a creator, but if someone tells me I must believe in said creator then I want to know why, because evidence so far encountered suggests that all Gods are *made up by humans*. Anyone can say they have heard the creator. Fine. Why can't *I*? Why does the creator only talk to certain people ? Why does the creator seem very concerned with extremely petty human things ? Why is the creator's primary concern belief when he must *know* that he hasn't given us sufficient evidence to come to that conclusion ? Why is he invisible ?

Why is the claimed evidence (miracles) so lousy ? I mean, what connection does "apparent violation of physical law" have to do with "violation was caused by super-being" ? Having said that, again, if the miracles were genuine, if for example someone was sick and I prayed or someone prayed and they got well again *reliably*, to the same level of effectiveness as say *scientific medicine*, then at least one could say that whoever this God chap was he definitely got the job done.

As another example, I believe in the existence of David Cameron, the current prime minister of the UK. He's a walking, talking, real live human. I've never met him, never seen him other than on TV. But I have no reason to suspect a trick with him, I can easily believe in his existence. I've *been* to the UK. People there all follow what he does in the news and when he says stuff people listen. Why isn't God at least as tangible as David Cameron, if he wants *belief* ?

I believe that Australia exists. I've never been there but I've met Australians and some good friends have gone over there and come back with suntans... Why doesn't the existence of God have the same level of credibility as the existence of the continent of Australia ?

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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28-01-2014, 11:56 PM
RE: What sort of evidence would it take for atheists to believe in a creator?
I really miss my warm fuzzy faith, an alien prankster turning the moon into cheese would be enough for me to worship.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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28-01-2014, 11:58 PM
RE: What sort of evidence would it take for atheists to believe in a creator?
(28-01-2014 11:56 PM)sporehux Wrote:  I really miss my warm fuzzy faith, an alien prankster turning the moon into cheese would be enough for me to worship.

I've been trying to tell you people for 2 years now.
The moon IS made of green cheese.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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29-01-2014, 12:03 AM
RE: What sort of evidence would it take for atheists to believe in a creator?
I did not say that no evidence will convince me. But there is a possibility that even if there were evidence I would not have enough knowledge to verify them.
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29-01-2014, 12:52 AM
RE: What sort of evidence would it take for atheists to believe in a creator?
If it were provable and it was a conscious being or beings, then I say, lets put it on trial for crimes against humanity. No kidding, sarcasm, facetiousness, or question about it.

"If you want a happy ending, that depends, of course, on where you stop your story." Orson Welles
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29-01-2014, 01:35 AM
RE: What sort of evidence would it take for atheists to believe in a creator?
(28-01-2014 11:55 PM)morondog Wrote:  Why doesn't the existence of God have the same level of credibility as the existence of the continent of Australia ?

Existence of Australia and existence of God are not the same thing. Sorry that's a bad question.
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29-01-2014, 03:17 AM
RE: What sort of evidence would it take for atheists to believe in a creator?
(29-01-2014 01:35 AM)donotwant Wrote:  
(28-01-2014 11:55 PM)morondog Wrote:  Why doesn't the existence of God have the same level of credibility as the existence of the continent of Australia ?

Existence of Australia and existence of God are not the same thing. Sorry that's a bad question.

I reject your judgement and assert that they are comparable and that it is a good question. If you wanna call it bad then explain why.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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29-01-2014, 03:45 AM
RE: What sort of evidence would it take for atheists to believe in a creator?
The old 'even if god provided you with evidence, you still wouldn't believe it' statement is flawed.

Your basically saying my will is stronger than your omnipotent god's.
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29-01-2014, 04:57 AM
RE: What sort of evidence would it take for atheists to believe in a creator?
(28-01-2014 11:55 PM)morondog Wrote:  I believe that Australia exists. I've never been there but I've met Australians and some good friends have gone over there and come back with suntans... Why doesn't the existence of God have the same level of credibility as the existence of the continent of Australia ?

Because Australia can be verified as a real place. People live there. Airplanes, boats & ships land there. Pictures can be taken of Australia from space. You, yourself can actually go there to verify the evidence.

God is an imaginary place in the mind that is completely different in each mind.

They don't have the same level of credibility because they don't have the same level of existence.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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29-01-2014, 05:12 AM
RE: What sort of evidence would it take for atheists to believe in a creator?
I can't think of a standard of evidence that would convince me a god exists. I can think of a standard of evidence that might convince me aliens exist, but I don't know how to tell the difference between a sufficiently advanced alien species and a god or gods.

I think theists are in the same boat. If you as a theist saw an event that could not be explained by human science - say everyone on earth receiving a single telepathic message at the same time - would you or could you be certain the message was from a god or your god?

Evidentially speaking the god concept is somewhat self-defeating. We might be able to tell whether a being we encounter is greater in power than we are, but deciding whether or not it is great enough in power to call "God" - that's another thing entirely. No doubt it would be worshipped as a god by some, but rejected by others.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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