What sort of evidence would it take for atheists to believe in a creator?
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03-02-2014, 02:46 PM
RE: What sort of evidence would it take for atheists to believe in a creator?
(03-02-2014 02:42 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  
(03-02-2014 08:42 AM)cjlr Wrote:  It's more parsimonious because one must then explain the creator.

But, uh, you knew that. I'm... not sure what purpose pretended ignorance serves.

Which goes back to why Occam's Razor justifies Naturalism, and why is it used so ubiquitously in atheist circles. The presumption is explanations can be obtained to account for existence. If there is a creator, why would it be a necessity that a by-product of a system, could explain the creator of that system? Unless you can explain this, using Occam's Razor seems to be a contrivance.

Why do so many atheists work off of the assumption that everything is knowable? What possible evidence, rationale, mode of causation do you promote to validate this perspective. Applying Occam's Razor despite the obvious ignorance is portraying a pretence of knowledge, where's there's none. How does natural solution become more parsimonious than a creator, unless you KNOW what the natural solution is? A potential infinite regress of creation points from big crunch to big bang, multiverses, string theory?


Actually I don't know any that work off the assumption that everything is knowable? Ya lost me on that one. I'm not being a smartass with you......I'm honestly saying I don't see that like apparently you do (?)

ubiquitously? Ya bastard LOL I hadn't seen that in so long I had to look it up. Stop making me work.
lol

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03-02-2014, 03:23 PM
RE: What sort of evidence would it take for atheists to believe in a creator?
(03-02-2014 02:43 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  Circular arguments. You sound like Tourette's. I can't be bothered with another.

The problem with all these silly failed attempts at swipes at me that you keep spamming the board with, is that they all apply to you rather than me. Nice try, though, loser.

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03-02-2014, 04:07 PM
RE: What sort of evidence would it take for atheists to believe in a creator?
(03-02-2014 02:42 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  Which goes back to why Occam's Razor justifies Naturalism, and why is it used so ubiquitously in atheist circles. The presumption is explanations can be obtained to account for existence. If there is a creator, why would it be a necessity that a by-product of a system, could explain the creator of that system? Unless you can explain this, using Occam's Razor seems to be a contrivance.

Indeed. The presumption is absolutely that explanations can be obtained.

The issue with anyone supposing a creator is that they are not obtaining an explanation but inventing one. Because just because, that's why, and never you mind.

A: "Why is there a universe?"
B: "I don't know."
(at this point the discussion, at least insofar as it pertains to naturalism, is over)
A: "It had to come from somewhere. Everything has to come from somewhere. Where did it come from?"
B: "I just said I don't know."
A: "A creator is somewhere."
B: "Technically, yes. But since we don't know any of the parameters or details (remember, that's why we're having this conversation), it must follow that you don't know anything about this 'creator'."
(an honest deist - as rare as a hen's tooth, but whatever - grants this; theists go on to populate their 'creator' with all kinds of incoherent attributes based on nothing whatsoever)
B: "Where did the creator come from?"
A: "The creator does not have to come from somewhere."
B: "You just said everything has to come from somewhere."
A: "Everything has to come from somewhere. The creator does not have to come from somewhere."
B: "That doesn't make sense."
A: "Yes it does. I have defined it that way."
B: "You just made up those definitions. That is an exercise in triviality."
A: "U CANT PROVE ITS WRONG LOL ATHESITS TINK THEY KNO EVERYTHING TROLOLOLOL"

(03-02-2014 02:42 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  Why do so many atheists work off of the assumption that everything is knowable? What possible evidence, rationale, mode of causation do you promote to validate this perspective. Applying Occam's Razor despite the obvious ignorance is portraying a pretence of knowledge, where's there's none. How does natural solution become more parsimonious than a creator, unless you KNOW what the natural solution is?

I will try to make this clear. It posits one entity. To suppose a creator necessitates two (or more). In either case one is bound (if honest) to admit of remaining unanswerable questions.

To answer an unanswerable question with a non-answer which itself only raises further unanswerable questions is not productive.

And that is why Ockham's Razor applies.

(I find it incredibly difficult to believe that no one has explained this to you before; what does pretending to be ignorant accomplish, exactly?)

(03-02-2014 02:42 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  A potential infinite regress of creation points from big crunch to big bang, multiverses, string theory?

Why not?

Since I don't know, and you don't know, there is literally nothing either of us can come up with to which the response is "no, that's impossible". We are left with superficial aesthetic judgements from a vantage point within the universe itself, a view which by definition is not situated to consider itself in context.

"It holds less appeal to my gut intuition" is a dogshit answer.

Gut intuition being as useful as dogshit, so far as learning things about the universe is concerned.

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03-02-2014, 05:49 PM
RE: What sort of evidence would it take for atheists to believe in a creator?
(03-02-2014 01:15 AM)Brownshirt Wrote:  Nature is observed by nature. We are part of it and have no explanation for nature. We observe the mechanics and processes and think we have a larger scope than is justified.

The question "why does nature exist", implicitly assumes that it is possible for nature not to exist. The proposition of the nonexistence of nature, is speculative, and possibly incoherent. There is no basis for even asking the question, and it's only that question that then leads to speculating further about gods. The very basis of a 'larger scope' needs to first be justified, and none of the theistic arguments ever bother to do that.

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04-02-2014, 01:25 AM
RE: What sort of evidence would it take for atheists to believe in a creator?
(03-02-2014 05:49 PM)toadaly Wrote:  
(03-02-2014 01:15 AM)Brownshirt Wrote:  Nature is observed by nature. We are part of it and have no explanation for nature. We observe the mechanics and processes and think we have a larger scope than is justified.

The question "why does nature exist", implicitly assumes that it is possible for nature not to exist. The proposition of the nonexistence of nature, is speculative, and possibly incoherent. There is no basis for even asking the question, and it's only that question that then leads to speculating further about gods. The very basis of a 'larger scope' needs to first be justified, and none of the theistic arguments ever bother to do that.

This statement reflects the fundamental inertia inherent in scepticism or as Kant put it:
‘the euthanasia of pure reason’. If you are going to consider possibilities or move away from the empiricism (and the lack of evidence for it) then you will need to consider options. Proposing that something is "possibly incoherent" without validation for doing so just attempts to discredit options.

Unless you have a reason for why empiricism is the correct approach to answering this question, I would suggest you need to reconsider your approach or be dependent on denying possibilities, which is not useful unless it's justified.

If you demonstrate a self-referential and self-creating system, then empiricism can be justified. Otherwise you're depending on empiricism, despite the lack of empirical evidence for it.
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04-02-2014, 01:30 AM
RE: What sort of evidence would it take for atheists to believe in a creator?
quote='Brownshirt' pid='484974' dateline='1391498745']
[Image: MarkWank.gif]
[/quote]


[Image: 387618476_1390980739.jpg]

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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04-02-2014, 01:57 AM
RE: What sort of evidence would it take for atheists to believe in a creator?
(04-02-2014 01:30 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  quote='Brownshirt' pid='484974' dateline='1391498745']
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You like peep shows?
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04-02-2014, 02:46 AM
RE: What sort of evidence would it take for atheists to believe in a creator?
(04-02-2014 01:57 AM)Brownshirt Wrote:  
(04-02-2014 01:30 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  quote='Brownshirt' pid='484974' dateline='1391498745']
[Image: MarkWank.gif]

You like peep shows?

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04-02-2014, 02:59 AM
RE: What sort of evidence would it take for atheists to believe in a creator?
(04-02-2014 02:46 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(04-02-2014 01:57 AM)Brownshirt Wrote:  You like peep shows?

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04-02-2014, 03:30 AM
RE: What sort of evidence would it take for atheists to believe in a creator?
(04-02-2014 02:59 AM)Brownshirt Wrote:  
(04-02-2014 02:46 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Do I ever! Check out these Tits!

[Image: GreatTit002.jpg]

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[Image: E3WvRwZ.gif]
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