What sort of evidence would it take for atheists to believe in a creator?
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28-01-2014, 07:54 PM
RE: What sort of evidence would it take for atheists to believe in a creator?
So much fun we're having on this thread, I'll play.

@lookingforanswers - I'll know it when I see it. Is that acceptable?

The unasked question, and the one I think is more important, is why would The Creator give a rat's ass what we think or don't think? Why do you find it so important to know what would make us puny biologics in this backwater part of space in the nether regions of an unremarkable galaxy, try to devine what a creator might do to convince us of it's existence?

If that entity actually gave a shit I would think it could come up with some doozy, irrefutable doings don't you think? Whatever it would be it would be well beyond our ability to even conceive. Personally I think that any Creator that needs my acknowledgement is a piss-poor one at being omnipotent or omniscient.

I'll take you at your word that you are looking for answers but I think better yet that perhaps you might be looking for ideas on how to convince your significant other to eat fruit from the woo-woo tree too.

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28-01-2014, 07:57 PM
RE: What sort of evidence would it take for atheists to believe in a creator?
(28-01-2014 07:54 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  So much fun we're having on this thread, I'll play.

@lookingforanswers - I'll know it when I see it. Is that acceptable?

The unasked question, and the one I think is more important, is why would The Creator give a rat's ass what we think or don't think? Why do you find it so important to know what would make us puny biologics in this backwater part of space in the nether regions of an unremarkable galaxy, try to devine what a creator might do to convince us of it's existence?

If that entity actually gave a shit I would think it could come up with some doozy, irrefutable doings don't you think? Whatever it would be it would be well beyond our ability to even conceive. Personally I think that any Creator that needs my acknowledgement is a piss-poor one at being omnipotent or omniscient.

I'll take you at your word that you are looking for answers but I think better yet that perhaps you might be looking for ideas on how to convince your significant other to eat fruit from the woo-woo tree too.

If he/she exists Smile

I'll just play the 'can I help you' lick!!!
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28-01-2014, 08:19 PM (This post was last modified: 28-01-2014 08:28 PM by Baruch.)
RE: What sort of evidence would it take for atheists to believe in a creator?
Quote: Lookingforanswers wrote:,
Is it reasonable to hold any belief (atheism included) when no "evidence" could possibly exist that would change your mind, and how is that any different than having blind faith?

Not at all
There is plenty evidence from all the areas you mentioned that would make an atheist believe.

Consider a counterfactual world where............

1. cosmological arguments are valid.
Eg lets say a revealed scripture stated the world was 6000 years old and we did some clever cosmology & work out a Hubble type constant and the age was exactly 6000 years old for oldest starlight. (there are dozens of examples like this which can strengthen the cosmological argument in a counterfactual world)

2. Valid divine ethical revelation
A scripture revealed has a completely coherent ethical system and it was publically revealed on multiple locations and languages independently of each other - eg like a revelation in Latin America, In Hebrew from Israel, In Greek somewhere near Athens and in Arabic near Mecca - all identical in respective languages. This isn't too much to ask - like a Rosetta Stone Divine revelation.


3. Valid intelligent design arguments

Imagine a counterfactual world were there were just the plant world, reptiles and humans. No evolutionary type of explanation could even begin and a revealed scripture made a coherent story. (...and there really would be an unbridgeable gap between reptiles and humans - each can even have different DNA such & left & right handed isomers, common ancestry would be unthinkable.
...and NO FOSSILS !

I can actually add so much here which would prove a creator !!!
Instead we have a world which looks evolutionary and has utterly botched up, screwed, torturous, negligent fucking stupid designs. Last week my mum almost chocked to death because of the stupidity having oesophagus slightly above Trachea sharing the same pathway

Eg: The problem is not that both tubes have two openings (mouth and nose), but that the oesophagus lies above the trachea in the throat, allowing food & liquid to fall into the trachea where they cross. An intelligent design would have the oesophagus below the trachea (i.e. at the front of the neck) so gravity would help keep us from choking. You can trace our "wrong" arrangement all the way back to the amphibians and fish from which we evolved. Evolution cannot fix this as it is topologically constrained. But a putative intelligent designer could.

4. Valid personal revelations which can be shared and cross checked
Self explanatory. Rather than subjective differences being so great all people receive coherent consistent revelations i.e perhaps at the age of 10 people get their first revelation and can discuss it with their family and community. Then on a yearly basis and so on - then they can get additional guidance or warnings. If they disobey a very clear revelation then they get consequences. If they nurture the revelations they get daily guidance. This can be balanced and allow for free will - no different to a parent bringing up a child but allowing autonomy at the same time....


5. Valid teleological arguments
Again a public revelation or private revelations for everybody reveals general projects for all humans and special tasks for different people. Each person knows their calling and its not disputable. An analogy would be a CEO giving you a job contract - this does not have to be a dictatorship - it can be negotiated via divine revelations that people can share with consistency (this is not far fetched at all - imagine a shared dream between work colleagues with the divine message )

6 All sorts of scientific information was consistently & coherently revealed via revelation publically. This would not prove God (it might be advanced aliens communicating) but would at least deny methodological naturalism as the main reliable source to do science.

...I can continue.

I can see that a reply might still be - how do you know its God and not some advanced aliens planting the revelations, intelligently designing, giving the ethical codes in multiple locations via revelation, giving people their teleological calling & purpose etc etc etc etc and still be atheist..

...have the aliens not got something better to do that wasting their time playing games with 7 Billion people ???

You might argue that the aliens design some super technology which does most of the revelation work - like a giant matrix simulator with all humans plugged in !!!!

You see, now we are getting somewhere - It might be a God or a super powerful alien entity with "borg like" matrix technology turning us all into their Sims - all revelations, cosmological arguments or design arguments would look identical. Technically such advanced aliens & God would be indistinguishable TO US.

However due to a few philosophical arguments on another post against us living in a sim/matrix/brain in a vat etc this would via Occam's razor leave God.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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28-01-2014, 08:22 PM
RE: What sort of evidence would it take for atheists to believe in a creator?
(28-01-2014 07:28 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  What evidence would it take to convince you that God does NOT exist?
Or even better still: Why do you (lookingforanswers) believe in God when the evidence you have isn't strong enough to convince other people (your wife, for instance) of his existence?

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28-01-2014, 08:25 PM
RE: What sort of evidence would it take for atheists to believe in a creator?
Vosur - leave me alone.
It is late at night and I have not had the time to proof check all the Grammar. Weeping

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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28-01-2014, 08:32 PM
RE: What sort of evidence would it take for atheists to believe in a creator?
(28-01-2014 08:25 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Vosur - leave me alone.
It is late at night and I have not had the time to proof check all the Grammar. Weeping
*grammar

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28-01-2014, 09:09 PM
RE: What sort of evidence would it take for atheists to believe in a creator?
Lookingforanswers,

Well, I'm awake now and catching up.

You don't seem too happy with / convinced by the responses you have received.

I gave a response in post #13. I didn't see a reply from you (sorry if I missed it in my sleepy state).
Perhaps you thought I was only being flippant. Well, OK, fair enough but not 'only' ... I was hoping that it would lead you towards a little critical thinking.

Doc and Vos were getting close to what I was getting at.

For reference:
(28-01-2014 07:28 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  Lookingforanswers,
You asked a question and then you snuck in a statement about the Jewish dietary laws saving the entire race, a non sequitur if I ever heard one. What was your reason for asking the question in the first place? Mere curiosity would not explain your eagerness to throw in the extra bone.

What evidence would it take to convince you that God does NOT exist?

Doc

(28-01-2014 08:22 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(28-01-2014 07:28 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  What evidence would it take to convince you that God does NOT exist?
Or even better still: Why do you (lookingforanswers) believe in God when the evidence you have isn't strong enough to convince other people (your wife, for instance) of his existence?

But I will attempt to make it less flippant and more obvious as to the way in which you can find your own answers.

Since you mentioned the Jewish framework in particular, try this question:
What sort of proof or evidence would you require to believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Or, if you write that one off as being too flippant, let's go back to your original question...

What sort of proof or evidence would you require to believe in a different creator i.e. not the one in which you already believe?

Most (in fact all, I think) believers with whom I am personally acquainted would give me something like the following:
Faith
Authority
Revelation
Tradition

I'll give you the benefit of doubt and accept that you are truly looking for answers, so please answer this too...

Do you understand why non-believers reject those 4 'evidences' above (FART) as merely ... Big Grin
... proof by hot air!

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28-01-2014, 09:21 PM
RE: What sort of evidence would it take for atheists to believe in a creator?
A single drop of evidence is all I need.
Similar to a drop of my blood at a crime scene. It's real. It's tangible. Tests can be performed using it. It contains information about me.
It can be used to identify me and place me at a location within a certain time frame.

Show me evidence of the creature in question, a hair sample from sasquatch, the tooth of a yeti, the mental thought waves of an incorporeal disembodied mind.

If you show me a well manicured lawn as evidence that an invisible, intangible lawnmower exists, I'm going to laugh at you.

Show me your god as a real and tangible thing in this universe. That is all the evidence I need.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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28-01-2014, 09:39 PM (This post was last modified: 28-01-2014 10:30 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: What sort of evidence would it take for atheists to believe in a creator?
(28-01-2014 11:36 AM)lookingforanswers Wrote:  Anyways,

Oops. Hmm. Dodgy

(28-01-2014 11:36 AM)lookingforanswers Wrote:  If a creator did care what humankind thought of him, I suppose he could just come down and tell us that he exists,

Really ? "He" ? "Come down" ? Seriously ?

(28-01-2014 11:36 AM)lookingforanswers Wrote:  Well, so what about miracles? Miracles (defined as an event that violates the laws of nature)

Nope. Biblical Studies 101. A "miracle" is an entirely NATURAL event, which is INTERPRETED by a believer in which the "hand of god is seen to be operating". A non-believer could witness the SAME event, and not "see" a miracle. I see your background in religion and Biblical Studies is non-existant.

A "personal" god (total anthropomorphism BTW) is not "infinite", by definition. A "person" is not another person, and has a "personality".
By definition, it's self refuting of an infinite deity.

The "act" of creation requires "intentionality", and it's a PROCESS. In the absence of space-time (which DID NOT EXIST prior to any creative act in your world) the use of those words is meaningless.


(28-01-2014 11:36 AM)lookingforanswers Wrote:  what is it that atheists are looking for that would convince them?

Nothing. The entire enterprise is meaningless, and you STILL have not examined your presuppositions. YOU have not defined in a coherent way what a "creator" is, how it could work, how it *caused* causality if causality was not already in place. The enterprise you describe is the equivalent to looking for a 1957 Chevy orbiting Pluto, AND HAS THE SAME VALUE.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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28-01-2014, 11:04 PM
RE: What sort of evidence would it take for atheists to believe in a creator?
I can not say because miracles could be faked by some alien prankster. And scientific evidence will be too complicated like the proof of fermat theorem. So at the moment none.
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