What sort of person is susceptible to the god delusion?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
04-04-2017, 07:49 PM
RE: What sort of person is susceptible to the god delusion?
(04-04-2017 05:52 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(04-04-2017 04:06 AM)SYZ Wrote:  I'm guessing you've already been asked this somewhere, but why specifically do you refer to your particular deity as G-d with the upper case G and the dash? I've not seen this before.

I can only suppose that this is driven by fear of disrespecting him/her? And if you do, then you're afraid of his/her retribution? Huh

Interesting conclusion: fear of retribution.

God, god, GOD, motherfucking god.

I'm not afraid of retribution. It's done out of habit. Cultural tendency.


I'd really like to hear a whole lot more about the way you conceptualize this "God, god, GOD, motherfucking god" of yours.

“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.”

― Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes whateverist's post
04-04-2017, 08:07 PM
RE: What sort of person is susceptible to the god delusion?
(04-04-2017 07:49 PM)whateverist Wrote:  
(04-04-2017 05:52 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Interesting conclusion: fear of retribution.

God, god, GOD, motherfucking god.

I'm not afraid of retribution. It's done out of habit. Cultural tendency.


I'd really like to hear a whole lot more about the way you conceptualize this "God, god, GOD, motherfucking god" of yours.

"Gött, strafe England!"
And, "God, save the King!"
God this, God that, and God the other thing.
"Good God!" said God. "I've got my work cut out!" (Bertrand Russell) Big Grin
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Gwaithmir's post
04-04-2017, 08:46 PM
RE: What sort of person is susceptible to the god delusion?
(03-04-2017 07:06 AM)ukatheist Wrote:  I think everyone is susceptible to religious belief.

I used to think that. But in recent years I am more and more drawn towards the conclusion that there are certain hard-wired components in our brains that determine whether, or at least how much we are susceptible to various kinds of beliefs.

Drawing from my own experience, I used to think that I believed in God up to a certain age, and then became an atheist. In retrospect, after a lot of self-examination, I now think that I never really believed. I didn't become an atheist; I was born an atheist. What I used to think of as my period of conversion, I now think of as my period of admission and self-acceptance.

I can't make myself believe is something so evidentially unsupported. I could pretend, and put on an act, if there was good reason to do so. But I would never really believe, regardless; I just don't think I'm constitutionally able to do it.

Of course, if someone has the necessary wiring, it's easier to inculcate belief from an earlier age than later on. And some people raised without belief do claim to come to it later in life. But if someone lacks the wiring, I really don't think it matters. Certainly a continual, pervasive, on-going effort was made to inculcate belief in me for more than a decade during my most formative years. It just never "took", although I imagined that it had for a while, simply because I had so few alternatives to compare it to.

And I think that harm can be done even if all one is doing is insisting that a child act as if they believed something, despite finding themselves unable to really believe it.

--
Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Dr H's post
04-04-2017, 09:32 PM
RE: What sort of person is susceptible to the god delusion?
(04-04-2017 08:36 AM)tomilay Wrote:  
(03-04-2017 07:51 PM)Aliza Wrote:  So if a person has been raised in a good home with stable, successful parents who impart moderate religious values that don't clash with science, then what exactly is there to cure?

Edit: (as Full Circle pointed out below) I'll change what I said from religious values to religious beliefs.

To be fair, whateverist refers to moderate beliefs which don't too glaringly run afoul of well established science. Your response appears to attempt to obscure the qualifiers.


I rather liked that answer. If only more xtians made room for treating the bible as wisdom stories or parables. I hate the tendency to read it like a legal document.

“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.”

― Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes whateverist's post
04-04-2017, 09:35 PM
RE: What sort of person is susceptible to the god delusion?
(04-04-2017 07:49 PM)whateverist Wrote:  
(04-04-2017 05:52 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Interesting conclusion: fear of retribution.

God, god, GOD, motherfucking god.

I'm not afraid of retribution. It's done out of habit. Cultural tendency.


I'd really like to hear a whole lot more about the way you conceptualize this "God, god, GOD, motherfucking god" of yours.

The Jewish concept of G-d is quite a bit different than the Christian concept. I’m not sure about the Muslim concept, so I won’t try to speak to that. I’ll try to give you an overview of the Jewish concept of G-d, but our view is so vastly different that I doubt I’ll be able to adequately express what I need to say to fully explain it.

Jews view G-d as being the creator of the universe, and also actually being everything in the universe. So you’re G-d, I’m G-d, the stars and planets in a far off galaxy are G-d, and my coffee mug is also G-d. (What G-d is not is any one of those things alone). G-d does not need you to worship it to make it feel big and important. Judaism teaches that Jews owe equal respect and deference to G-d as to our fellow humans. We don’t believe that G-d can absolve you of a sin committed against a fellow human. Only that human who was wronged can do that. You can pray every day for the rest of your life, but if you don’t seek gain absolution from the person you wronged, then you have that black mark on your permanent file.

Judaism doesn’t view humanity as inherently evil. We don’t have original sin or Satan the way Christians do, and we don’t have a concept of eternal punishment. We also don’t have heaven or eternal life. We do believe that everyone should live within a certain framework of laws and customs and those laws should be enforced. Punishments can occur during our lifetimes, or after we die, but those punishments match the crime and are not eternal.

In Judaism G-d doesn't love or favor one group of people over the other group. Being Jewish earns you no special access to heaven and failing to have been born into a Jewish family doesn’t damn you to eternal torture. Judaism does allow for converts, but no one needs to (or should be) Jewish. We all go to the exact same place when we die, and Jews don’t even fully understand what that place is.

Judaism teaches, first and foremost, to live your life in the here and now and eek out as much pleasure as you possibly can.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Aliza's post
04-04-2017, 09:38 PM
RE: What sort of person is susceptible to the god delusion?
People who are needy, greedy and unsatisfied. Religion caters to all the aspects of life most of us are hardwired to want.
Difference between us and them: We work with what we have instead of dreaming about all the things we tell ourselves the world owes us.

(02-04-2017 11:40 PM)whateverist Wrote:  I don't think believers must be mentally deficient or morally flawed to hold on to their god.

Like a classified mental illness, I'm guessing it is a combination of a wide range of "symptoms".
Everybody is a little bit crazy (or perhaps I've just got a knack for finding interesting people). A little bit not-perfect, and this is one of the forms it expresses itself in.

We usually don't call people who suffer from depression, aggression, compulsive repetitive behavior or phobias "deficient". But we don't call them healthy either.

"Throughout history, every mystery, ever solved, has turned out to be; Not magic."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes M. Linoge's post
04-04-2017, 09:54 PM
RE: What sort of person is susceptible to the god delusion?
(04-04-2017 08:51 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-04-2017 08:12 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Again; total bullshit. Incidentally, the 22.3% who declare "no religion" can hardly be considered theists by any stretch of the imagination LOL.

Well, then you clearly don't know much about theism, lol. If you're not an athiest, as you put it among the 25% who don't believe in any gods, your a theists of some form of the other.


Holy cow. Please show your work. How in the world do you figure that?

“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.”

― Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-04-2017, 10:37 PM
RE: What sort of person is susceptible to the god delusion?
(04-04-2017 09:35 PM)Aliza Wrote:  The Jewish concept of G-d is quite a bit different than the Christian concept. I’m not sure about the Muslim concept, so I won’t try to speak to that. I’ll try to give you an overview of the Jewish concept of G-d, but our view is so vastly different that I doubt I’ll be able to adequately express what I need to say to fully explain it.

Jews view G-d as being the creator of the universe,


Would you say that anywhere near all jews hold that view? Do you think of G-d as being conscious in a human way and exercising intentionality? Or maybe 'creation' is just G-d being G-d the way a river does what a river does.

(If you're interested, there is a sense in which I think you can say G-d created man before we created it but I see all that going on intra-psychically within each human being in each life time .. not as something happening historically 'out there'.)


(04-04-2017 09:35 PM)Aliza Wrote:  .. and also actually being everything in the universe. So you’re G-d, I’m G-d, the stars and planets in a far off galaxy are G-d, and my coffee mug is also G-d. (What G-d is not is any one of those things alone).

Not sure what this contributes. Kind of pan-god'ism I guess. But, you know, if everything is X what does its being X tell us about anything at all? [But I appreciate you're being thorough and generous with your time here.]


(04-04-2017 09:35 PM)Aliza Wrote:  G-d does not need you to worship it to make it feel big and important.

Excellent.


(04-04-2017 09:35 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Judaism teaches that Jews owe equal respect and deference to G-d as to our fellow humans.

I can see how this is important. I think everyone is better off to have faith in something greater than their normal conscious self. It's a quality of life issue so very practical.


(04-04-2017 09:35 PM)Aliza Wrote:  We don’t believe that G-d can absolve you of a sin committed against a fellow human. Only that human who was wronged can do that. You can pray every day for the rest of your life, but if you don’t seek gain absolution from the person you wronged, then you have that black mark on your permanent file.

Excellent. I always say I'm not invested in theists giving up theology, I'd just like them to do it better. You're doing great. Vast improvement over the pernicious strains of protestantism we hear so much from in the US.


(04-04-2017 09:35 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Judaism doesn’t view humanity as inherently evil. We don’t have original sin or Satan the way Christians do, and we don’t have a concept of eternal punishment. We also don’t have heaven or eternal life.

Big thumbs up to all that. But other things you say seem in conflict with not having "eternal life". Probably something getting lost in translation, but thanks again for trying to convey it anyway.


(04-04-2017 09:35 PM)Aliza Wrote:  We do believe that everyone should live within a certain framework of laws and customs and those laws should be enforced. Punishments can occur during our lifetimes, or after we die, but those punishments match the crime and are not eternal.

So there is life after death, it's just not eternal? Not feeling this one, but I suppose it promotes thinking beyond your personal death. Useful, but I think I can cover the same ground just by caring about the wellbeing of others for their own sake - not as accoutrements of my existence.


(04-04-2017 09:35 PM)Aliza Wrote:  In Judaism G-d doesn't love or favor one group of people over the other group.

Then you need a better press agent because the view out here is you guys think of yourselves as the G-d's chosen. Big Grin


(04-04-2017 09:35 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Being Jewish earns you no special access to heaven and failing to have been born into a Jewish family doesn’t damn you to eternal torture. Judaism does allow for converts, but no one needs to (or should be) Jewish. We all go to the exact same place when we die, and Jews don’t even fully understand what that place is.

I'm getting the impression that jewish 'heaven' is like some kind of after-the-game party. Doesn't last forever and at some point there'll be announcement that "you don't have to go home but you can't stay here".


(04-04-2017 09:35 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Judaism teaches, first and foremost, to live your life in the here and now and eek out as much pleasure as you possibly can.

Pro-pleasure is a plus.

Thanks for the education. Would you say this description would please the majority of gods chosen? Wink

“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.”

― Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-04-2017, 10:43 PM
RE: What sort of person is susceptible to the god delusion?
(04-04-2017 07:47 PM)whateverist Wrote:  
(04-04-2017 05:32 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  I feel like it's to do with the ability and desire to uniformly apply scepticism/critical thinking. If you lack either, and you're surrounded by believers, you'll probably become one.

I'm always interested in what would have happened if I was indoctrinated into religion. I feel like I'd probably have found my way out, but I'm sure that hard enough indoctrination could break anyone.


We probably disagree about this, but I find I much more often agree with you. I don't know that one can by skepticism and critical thinking alone put together a meaningful set of goals and values. There is more than that to being a person I think but I don't have a rock solid interpersonal case to make for this. So you go be you.

I was just addressing whether or not someone believes in God; this is an assessment of facts about reality. I totally agree, goals and values are personal and subjective. (I recently made a video based around that very point.)

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Robvalue's post
04-04-2017, 11:43 PM
RE: What sort of person is susceptible to the god delusion?
(04-04-2017 10:37 PM)whateverist Wrote:  
(04-04-2017 09:35 PM)Aliza Wrote:  The Jewish concept of G-d is quite a bit different than the Christian concept. I’m not sure about the Muslim concept, so I won’t try to speak to that. I’ll try to give you an overview of the Jewish concept of G-d, but our view is so vastly different that I doubt I’ll be able to adequately express what I need to say to fully explain it.
Jews view G-d as being the creator of the universe,
Would you say that anywhere near all jews hold that view? Do you think of G-d as being conscious in a human way and exercising intentionality? Or maybe 'creation' is just G-d being G-d the way a river does what a river does.

(If you're interested, there is a sense in which I think you can say G-d created man before we created it but I see all that going on intra-psychically within each human being in each life time .. not as something happening historically 'out there'.)

Not every Jew believes this, but this is primarily because most American and Israeli Jews fit the category of being atheist/agnostic or “spiritual,” and may not be educated in religious stuff. They may not believe it because they’re uninformed of Judaism’s stance, but aside from having no strong opinion of a creator in the first place, I’m unaware of any conflicting or alternate theology within Judaism.

I guess I could have been more precise to say that religiously educated and observant Jews believe this.

(04-04-2017 10:37 PM)whateverist Wrote:  
(04-04-2017 09:35 PM)Aliza Wrote:  .. and also actually being everything in the universe. So you’re G-d, I’m G-d, the stars and planets in a far off galaxy are G-d, and my coffee mug is also G-d. (What G-d is not is any one of those things alone).
Not sure what this contributes. Kind of pan-god'ism I guess. But, you know, if everything is X what does its being X tell us about anything at all? [But I appreciate you're being thorough and generous with your time here.]

I was really just trying to explain the Jewish concept of G-d in contrast of the Christian concept. Christians view their god as more of a male individual with arms, legs and a mouth. (and I use the pronoun "he" to describe G-d, too, but G-d is really not a male.) The Jewish concept is of a bodiless entity that is infinite. We add to that that our idea of G-d is that G-d is conscious, aware, and involved with its creation.

(04-04-2017 10:37 PM)whateverist Wrote:  
(04-04-2017 09:35 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Judaism doesn’t view humanity as inherently evil. We don’t have original sin or Satan the way Christians do, and we don’t have a concept of eternal punishment. We also don’t have heaven or eternal life.

Big thumbs up to all that. But other things you say seem in conflict with not having "eternal life". Probably something getting lost in translation, but thanks again for trying to convey it anyway.

We don’t really have a solid concept of the afterlife. Not being eternal could imply that reincarnation is our ultimate destiny, or maybe we’re simply pulled from the constraints of space-time and just exist. We don’t know.

(04-04-2017 10:37 PM)whateverist Wrote:  
(04-04-2017 09:35 PM)Aliza Wrote:  We do believe that everyone should live within a certain framework of laws and customs and those laws should be enforced. Punishments can occur during our lifetimes, or after we die, but those punishments match the crime and are not eternal.

So there is life after death, it's just not eternal? Not feeling this one, but I suppose it promotes thinking beyond your personal death. Useful, but I think I can cover the same ground just by caring about the wellbeing of others for their own sake - not as accoutrements of my existence.

Our loose concept is that we’ll go to a place of review, pay for any crimes that didn’t get paid for while we were alive, and then move on to the world of souls. Another variation that I heard is that our souls are like pieces of G-d and they were on loan to our bodies during our lifetimes. When we die, our souls return from wherever they came from.

Really, Judaism doesn’t say much about what happens after we die because it’s not information that we need to know to live a productive life. Christianity is a religion about death, but Judaism is a religion about life. Judaism focuses very heavily on information that we need to live happy, productive lives.

(04-04-2017 10:37 PM)whateverist Wrote:  
(04-04-2017 09:35 PM)Aliza Wrote:  In Judaism G-d doesn't love or favor one group of people over the other group.

Then you need a better press agent because the view out here is you guys think of yourselves as the G-d's chosen. Big Grin

Being chosen just means that we were hired to do a specific job. If the Christians would just ask us what our book means instead of telling us what they think it means according to their mistranslated, taken out of context OT, this confusion could be cleared right up.

We’re very content that they’re not trying to kill us right now. We’re not going to rock the boat with these people. Tongue

(04-04-2017 10:37 PM)whateverist Wrote:  
(04-04-2017 09:35 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Judaism teaches, first and foremost, to live your life in the here and now and eek out as much pleasure as you possibly can.

Pro-pleasure is a plus.

Thanks for the education. Would you say this description would please the majority of gods chosen? Wink

As for the description, you'd hear different viewpoints from the different Jewish movements. Jews range from atheist to agnostic/spiritual to moderate theistic to fundamentalist theistic. My description assumes a theistic standpoint from the best of my understanding and ability to explain a conservative or orthodox point of view.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Aliza's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: