What the hell is wrong with Bill Maher? (Germ Theory Denialism)
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06-07-2011, 08:42 AM
RE: What the hell is wrong with Bill Maher? (Germ Theory Denialism)
Supposedly the amount of mercury in thimerosal is less than what you'd find in a tuna sandwich.

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06-07-2011, 12:42 PM
RE: What the hell is wrong with Bill Maher? (Germ Theory Denialism)
(06-07-2011 08:42 AM)Efrx86 Wrote:  Supposedly the amount of mercury in thimerosal is less than what you'd find in a tuna sandwich.

Right. Mercury is highly toxic, but even something that poisonous is harmless if you take it in small enough doses at large enough intervals. In mercury's case, it's just very, very small doses very, very far apart.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
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06-07-2011, 04:43 PM
 
RE: What the hell is wrong with Bill Maher? (Germ Theory Denialism)
(06-07-2011 12:15 AM)monkeyshine89 Wrote:  There may be other chemicals in vaccines, but just because it's a chemical does not mean it's harmful, people often get hung up on this for some reason.

Either way the good way way way out numbers the bad, I still think that people who do not vaccinate themselves or their children are selfish.

True, everything is a chemical. Although I think it's more fear or ignorance about vaccinations than selfishness.
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08-07-2011, 04:11 AM (This post was last modified: 08-07-2011 04:16 AM by Filox.)
RE: What the hell is wrong with Bill Maher? (Germ Theory Denialism)
It is all very nice when you read about vaccines, but if you ask me, they have all lied too many times for their own profit, so I tend not to trust them too much. Who are "they"? They are the governments and pharmaceutical companies. I used to get vaccinated for flu couple of years in a row, then last year they started to write some things in the newspapers about the part of vaccine that can cause all sorts of problems, about that enhancement part of the vaccine. So I began to question the true purpose of me getting vaccinated every year... When I was a child I got all those small pox vaccines, and whatever else they give you as a kid, but to take some new BS every year, it was too much for me. I am healthy and my immune system is good, I don't ever get sick, so I don't see the reason to experiment with these things, when no one, not even my doctor could have explained everything I wanted to know about that years vaccine. So I didn't take it and guess what? Nothing happened, I didn't get any sort of flu. Nor will I get it next year... I think they started to overexaggerate all these flu stuff just to sell those vaccines. If you ask me, they can give me water in that injection, how can I know did they gave me placebo, or something worth taking?

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08-07-2011, 08:05 AM
 
RE: What the hell is wrong with Bill Maher? (Germ Theory Denialism)
(08-07-2011 04:11 AM)Filox Wrote:  It is all very nice when you read about vaccines, but if you ask me, they have all lied too many times for their own profit, so I tend not to trust them too much. Who are "they"? They are the governments and pharmaceutical companies. I used to get vaccinated for flu couple of years in a row, then last year they started to write some things in the newspapers about the part of vaccine that can cause all sorts of problems, about that enhancement part of the vaccine. So I began to question the true purpose of me getting vaccinated every year... When I was a child I got all those small pox vaccines, and whatever else they give you as a kid, but to take some new BS every year, it was too much for me. I am healthy and my immune system is good, I don't ever get sick, so I don't see the reason to experiment with these things, when no one, not even my doctor could have explained everything I wanted to know about that years vaccine. So I didn't take it and guess what? Nothing happened, I didn't get any sort of flu. Nor will I get it next year... I think they started to overexaggerate all these flu stuff just to sell those vaccines. If you ask me, they can give me water in that injection, how can I know did they gave me placebo, or something worth taking?

It was stated earlier in the thread that you probably did not get sick because the other people who had the vaccine acted as a buffer around you, you didn't get sick because they didn't get sick in other words. You're not guaranteed to catch the flu every year, though I don't try to get a flu shot anymore because there is never enough allocated to my area. For five years I would drive to three separate spots only to hear, "We are saving what is left for the children and elderly.".
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08-07-2011, 08:32 AM
RE: What the hell is wrong with Bill Maher? (Germ Theory Denialism)
Here's a video on herd immunity and how it is important to protect those vulnerable sections of our society.



If enough people decide to not get the flu vaccine it can begin to significantly spread, reaching those who could die from it and are unable to get vaccinated(i.e. newborns and sickly).

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08-07-2011, 09:06 AM
RE: What the hell is wrong with Bill Maher? (Germ Theory Denialism)
(08-07-2011 04:11 AM)Filox Wrote:  It is all very nice when you read about vaccines, but if you ask me, they have all lied too many times for their own profit, so I tend not to trust them too much.

When have they lied? What do you not trust them about? Do you still get vaccinated?

(08-07-2011 04:11 AM)Filox Wrote:  I used to get vaccinated for flu couple of years in a row, then last year they started to write some things in the newspapers about the part of vaccine that can cause all sorts of problems, about that enhancement part of the vaccine.

You do realize that newspapers are not peer-reviewed medical journals, right? They get paid to sell newspapers, not to present a balanced look at things. Blowing things out of proportion is part of the business.

(08-07-2011 04:11 AM)Filox Wrote:  So I began to question the true purpose of me getting vaccinated every year...

And what did you come up with?

(08-07-2011 04:11 AM)Filox Wrote:  When I was a child I got all those small pox vaccines, and whatever else they give you as a kid, but to take some new BS every year, it was too much for me. I am healthy and my immune system is good, I don't ever get sick

Have you ever considered that a large part of why you are healthy is probably that you got vaccinated? At the very least you are feeling the benefits of herd immunity, as several others have already pointed out.

(08-07-2011 04:11 AM)Filox Wrote:  so I don't see the reason to experiment with these things, when no one, not even my doctor could have explained everything I wanted to know about that years vaccine.

Doctors hand out hundreds of vaccinations every year, each with hundreds of different ingredients. Just because your doctor can't list every single one and its purpose at the drop of a hat does not mean that the vaccination is dangerous. If you want more information on the contents of a medicine, there are plenty of online sources for you to check. Don't blame your doctor for not having superhuman memory.

(08-07-2011 04:11 AM)Filox Wrote:  So I didn't take it and guess what? Nothing happened, I didn't get any sort of flu.

"So I didn't use a condom, and guess what? She didn't get pregnant!"

(08-07-2011 04:11 AM)Filox Wrote:  Nor will I get it next year... I think they started to overexaggerate all these flu stuff just to sell those vaccines.

"...So I'm not going to use a condom next time, either, because they've obviously exaggerated the risk of pregnancy in order to sell these things."

(08-07-2011 04:11 AM)Filox Wrote:  If you ask me, they can give me water in that injection, how can I know did they gave me placebo, or something worth taking?

Technically, you don't, but do you refuse to have your house repaired simply because you don't trust the repairman to not use shoddy materials? Do you not use elevators because you don't trust the engineers to not cut corners?

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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08-07-2011, 02:07 PM
RE: What the hell is wrong with Bill Maher? (Germ Theory Denialism)
I don't think being concerned about the motivations of for-profit pharmaceutical companies, politicians that take lobbying dollars, and regulators that often go to take extremely lucrative jobs from the companies they used to regulate makes you paranoid. I think that Filox identifies a valid reason to be concerned about what messages get sent about these things and I don't think we are always told the whole truth. There have been countless examples of cover-ups from various entities to not be worried about if we always told the truth.

That said, I don't believe that there is any kind of mass conspiracy between governments and industry to kill us all off or anything like that. I do think they want these things to be as safe as possible, but I do believe corners get cut from time to time and that can have health implications. And, I agree with unbeliever that not getting the flu is not proof of anything. Also, I really liked the "condom' retort. Good stuff!

As for vaccines themselves, I'm all for them. I think people forget that one of the reasons we don't have many of the health issues that were prevalent in the not-so-distant past is because of vaccines. But, I do think Maher has a point about how these things are pushed on us. I think he's wrong on the implication that we should be erring on the side of not vaccinating but open dialogue is never a bad thing.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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08-07-2011, 05:02 PM
RE: What the hell is wrong with Bill Maher? (Germ Theory Denialism)
(08-07-2011 02:07 PM)BnW Wrote:  There have been countless examples of cover-ups from various entities

Such as?

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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08-07-2011, 06:33 PM
RE: What the hell is wrong with Bill Maher? (Germ Theory Denialism)
How long a list would you like? I'll throw a few things out and you can tell me if you want more:

- asbestos manufacturers knew about the health risks for 50 years and chose not to tell anyone or do anything about it because it was profitable. They finally got nailed because during the discovery phase of like the 3rd round of attempted litigation someone found a document from the 1930s or 40s buried in a warehouse that opened the flood gates;
- there have been a number of drug trials where the pharmaceutical companies have buried negative results for a number of reasons. Go research Vioxx as one example. Merck covered up deaths during the trials to get approval for the drug and the FDA ultimately forced a recall after people started dying. It took a few lives before it was figured out.
- You may also want to research a drug called Avandia.
- go research the history of Thalidomide as another example
- about a year ago Pfizer got nailed because it withheld data that showed an antidepressant drug called Edronax antidepressant was not only completely ineffective but also possibly harmful to people. And yet, they continued to sell it. Go figure.
- and, if you're looking for a government connection, ask yourself this: why are drugs so expensive in the US? One of the hotbed issues is always if people in the US can buy cheaper meds out of Canada via mail order. Right now, the law says you can't. In a debate during the 2004 election George W. Bush said this was to protect Americans. His exact quote was "When a drug comes in from Canada, I wanna make sure it cures ya, not kill ya." This is complete nonsense, as well as being a bipartisan position (Clinton had the same view). There is, and never has been, any evidence that drugs coming in from Canada are counterfeit and not real. There is, however, plenty of evidence that those drugs are substantially cheaper. And why would that be? Well, it may have something to do with the fact that the US Congress has passed legislation that prevents any government or government funded entities from banding together to use their superior buying power to get better pricing from Big Pharma and lower the costs of drugs. And why do they agree to handcuff themselves this way? Well, I don't know the exact answer to that, but if I was a betting man I would bet it has everything to do with the amount of money Big Pharma spends on both lobbying and campaign contributions. Call it a crazy, cynical hunch.

This is just a scratch at the surface of this. If you want, we can get into falsified environmental reports from the government on air quality, risks from carcinogens, even global warming. However deep you want to go on this, I can certainly go.

So, while I don't think companies are purposely putting harmful vaccines on the market, I'm certainly not going to knock someone who is a little suspect of the motivations of larger corporate interests and the government officials they buy on a daily basis.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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