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What the hell is wrong with the United States?
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12-05-2014, 08:10 PM
RE: What the hell is wrong with the United States?
(12-05-2014 07:36 PM)cjlr Wrote:  With the ever-so-slight caveat that that isn't true.

Even with your report US spending is in the top 3, and your report uses PPP, not nominal amounts so it's adjusted for GDP, and since much of education spending is fixed (ie a computer costs the same in India--it not more--than in the US, and construction costs as well vary less than gdp), I'm not sure adjusting the full amount to PPP is reasonable--really only the salaries should be adjusted. Regardless, even with your adjustments, US spending is still in the top 3.

I embedded a nice chart of the UN data showing visually how US education spending compares to other countries and the conclusion: "We’ve put together this infographic that compares the United States’ education spend and performance versus eleven countries. The U.S. is the clear leader in total annual spending, but ranks 9th in Science performance and 10th in Math." You can see that results aren't dependent on how much you spend. Russia is 2nd from the bottom in terms of spending, but 2nd from the top in terms of literary. The US is also 3rd from the bottom on math, and 4th from the bottom on science.

According to the OECD: "The United States spent more than $11,000 per elementary student in 2010 and more than $12,000 per high school student. When researchers factored in the cost for programs after high school education such as college or vocational training, the United States spent $15,171 on each young person in the system — more than any other nation covered in the report."

Moreon the OECD report: "American Schools vs. the World: Expensive, Unequal, Bad at Math"

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12-05-2014, 08:14 PM
RE: What the hell is wrong with the United States?
Oh, and PS, before the US switched to centrally planned education in the 1970's with the DoEd, back when education was still exclusively a state/local issue, the US ranked #1.
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12-05-2014, 08:20 PM
RE: What the hell is wrong with the United States?
(12-05-2014 08:14 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Oh, and PS, before the US switched to centrally planned education in the 1970's with the DoEd, back when education was still exclusively a state/local issue, the US ranked #1.
Do you have a source to support that claim?

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12-05-2014, 08:27 PM
RE: What the hell is wrong with the United States?
(12-05-2014 08:10 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Even with your report US spending is in the top 3, and your report uses PPP, not nominal amounts so it's adjusted for GDP, and since much of education spending is fixed (ie a computer costs the same in India--it not more--than in the US, and construction costs as well vary less than gdp), I'm not sure adjusting the full amount to PPP is reasonable--really only the salaries should be adjusted. Regardless, even with your adjustments, US spending is still in the top 3.

They are not my adjustments, they are the OECD's adjustments. Take it up with them.

Spending relative to GDP per capita is exactly proportional at primary and secondary levels.

(12-05-2014 08:10 PM)frankksj Wrote:  I embedded a nice chart of the UN data showing visually how US education spending compares to other countries and the conclusion: "We’ve put together this infographic that compares the United States’ education spend and performance versus eleven countries. The U.S. is the clear leader in total annual spending, but ranks 9th in Science performance and 10th in Math." You can see that results aren't dependent on how much you spend. Russia is 2nd from the bottom in terms of spending, but 2nd from the top in terms of literary. The US is also 3rd from the bottom on math, and 4th from the bottom on science.

The graphic quotes raw numbers, which are useless in context. Why, I'm positively shocked - shocked! - that Canada spends less in aggregate than nations with dramatically larger populations. However could that come to pass!?

The results given are for those twelve nations only, not even the complete OECD or PISA figures; the differences are in many cases not statistically significant. Incidentally they're also the 2009 rather than 2012 figures...

(12-05-2014 08:10 PM)frankksj Wrote:  According to the OECD: "The United States spent more than $11,000 per elementary student in 2010 and more than $12,000 per high school student. When researchers factored in the cost for programs after high school education such as college or vocational training, the United States spent $15,171 on each young person in the system — more than any other nation covered in the report."

Again - raw numbers are not meaningful, and that quoted figures includes post-secondary expenditure, which is beyond the scope of the very test results you just cited.

(12-05-2014 08:10 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Moreon the OECD report: "American Schools vs. the World: Expensive, Unequal, Bad at Math"

OECD nations are extremely comparable in spending and attainment. The variation is generally insignificant and inevitable. "The United States spends more" is simply not true. "The United States scores worse" is simply not true. Variation within American attainment is heavily correlated with poverty.

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12-05-2014, 08:51 PM
RE: What the hell is wrong with the United States?
The problems in the U.S. can be traced in a large part to grotesque wealth & income disparity and the increasing collapse of the middle class.

It was the middle class that supported quality education at all levels in the twentieth century, especially the second half.

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12-05-2014, 09:41 PM
RE: What the hell is wrong with the United States?
Quote:Do you have a source to support that claim?

FOX "News", no doubt!

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12-05-2014, 10:27 PM
RE: What the hell is wrong with the United States?
(12-05-2014 08:20 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(12-05-2014 08:14 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Oh, and PS, before the US switched to centrally planned education in the 1970's with the DoEd, back when education was still exclusively a state/local issue, the US ranked #1.
Do you have a source to support that claim?

Only some lecture from Milton Friedman he gave around the end of the 1970's when he said that 5 years on after forming the Dept of Education the US had fallen from #1 on international test scores, and he predicted that as long as the US kept switching to centrally-planned education the score would keep dropping. I did a quick google search on historic internationally-standardized test scores and wasn't able to find the source.
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12-05-2014, 10:31 PM
RE: What the hell is wrong with the United States?
(12-05-2014 08:51 PM)Chas Wrote:  The problems in the U.S. can be traced in a large part to grotesque wealth & income disparity and the increasing collapse of the middle class.

It was the middle class that supported quality education at all levels in the twentieth century, especially the second half.

For once we agree. Now my question to you is why did inequality in the US get better in the 50's and 60's and reverse course around 1970 getting worse and worse ever since? Before you say 'income taxes aren't high enough', remember that when the trend reversed the top income tax rate was 70%. So, if we agree that the desolation of the middle class has exacerbated the erosion of education in the US, then to fix the problem we should look at what happened in 1970 that caused the trend towards equality and a thriving middle class to reverse course....
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12-05-2014, 11:01 PM
RE: What the hell is wrong with the United States?
(12-05-2014 08:20 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(12-05-2014 08:14 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Oh, and PS, before the US switched to centrally planned education in the 1970's with the DoEd, back when education was still exclusively a state/local issue, the US ranked #1.
Do you have a source to support that claim?

After a bit more googling, I did find a reference. As always, Milton Friedman's facts were spot on. According to Barry McGaw, director of education for the OECD, the US really was #1 link. He also wrote: "Given what the United States spends on education, its relatively low student achievement through high school shows its school system is clearly inefficient". Also, Kilpatrick chronicled education standards in the US and confirmed the 50's and 60's were "the golden age" link. Here's a bunch of statistics showing just how far the US has fallen since centralizing education. Also, the US's historic spending on education as a % of gdp is below. When the US was #1, it was spending 3% of gdp on education. Now the US is #17 and is spending twice as much. link

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12-05-2014, 11:16 PM
RE: What the hell is wrong with the United States?
(12-05-2014 08:51 PM)Chas Wrote:  The problems in the U.S. can be traced in a large part to grotesque wealth & income disparity and the increasing collapse of the middle class.

It was the middle class that supported quality education at all levels in the twentieth century, especially the second half.

UK has more billionaires per head than any other country in the world.
And they're no- Consider Ok wait bad example.

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