Poll: What's the biggest problem facing the United States today?
Religion
Lack of Education
Reliance on Figureheads instead of critical thinking
Apathy
[Show Results]
 
What the hell is wrong with the United States?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
12-05-2014, 11:27 PM
RE: What the hell is wrong with the United States?
I'll take Option 5: The systematic corruption and purchasing of our elected officials by moneyed interests. First we need to fix our government and restore it to a functional republic before we can truly address any further issues.

Corporations are not people.

Money is not speech.



Wolf-PAC.com

"We must reverse Citizens United, Restore our Democracy, and Save the Republic. Join the Fight for Free and Fair Elections in America!"


Our Ultimate Goal:

To restore true, representative democracy in the United States by pressuring our State Representatives to pass a much needed 28th Amendment to our Constitution which would end corporate personhood and publicly finance all elections in our country. There are only 2 ways to amend the Constitution. (1) Go through our federal government (2) Go through our State Legislators via an amendments convention of the states.

Wolf PAC believes that we can no longer count on our federal government to do what is in the best interest of the American people due to the unfettered amount of money they receive from outside organizations to fund their campaigns. We point to the failure of the Disclose Act as rock solid evidence that this would be a total waste of our time, effort, and money. We also point to the recent decision by the US Supreme Court to not even hear a case filed by Montana claiming it did not have to abide by Citizens United, as proof that state legislation is not a sufficient measure to solve this problem. We believe that we have no choice but to put an amendment in the hands of our State Legislators, who are not, at this moment in time, completely blinded by the influence of money and might actually do what 96% of the country wants...take away the massive influence that money has over our political process.



Step 1: Believe

Convince enough people to believe that we still have the power to change our country for the better and that it is still possible to have a true, representative democracy in the United States. Convince those same people that we have a plan that can work if they are willing to do any of these vital things for us; volunteer their skills, spread the word via telling others, posting our link through email or Facebook, donating, or becoming a Wolf PAC Member. Think about how much power we would have if just 1/3 of 1 percent of us were giving only $10 a month to this cause...we would have 10 million dollars a month to educate people and actually change the system for the better. You can become a member and help us have the power we need to fight fire with fire by Clicking Here.


Step 2: Action

Build a structure of volunteers in every state and district in the country that is capable of contacting their State Legislators at the drop of a hat. We know that State Legislators listen to people within their own districts and that if they get just three calls on any given issue they are going to pay attention to that issue. If we can build our network big enough to put pressure on State Legislators in every district in the country then we will win. That's why we really need you to sign up to volunteer. All we need you to do is be willing to make a call to your local State Legislators when needed.


Step 3: Focus

Once we have found those states that are the most receptive to joining this battle with us we will focus our time, effort, and money on them until we get that vital and historic first state to call for an Article V. Convention for the purpose of limiting the influence that money has over our political process. According to Article V, Congress must call for an amendment-proposing convention, “on the application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States”, and therefore 34 state legislatures would have to submit applications.


Step 4: Connect

After we have gained momentum from getting that first state "on the board" we will then begin to introduce State Legislators all around the country to each other via conference calls, webinars, etc. and show them that this a real possibility if they are willing to stand up together. Explain to them that a convention is the only way to restore true democracy to the United States and that they have a chance to be part of something incredibly historic.


Step 5: Demand

Make every election in the United States from now until this problem is solved a one issue election. If the influence of money in politics is at the root of all other issues in our country we must start voting like it. We will inform the public by running television commercials, radio ads, social media, internet ads, and using the media platform of the largest online news show in the world, The Young Turks. As we get more and more states to call for a convention with the purpose of getting the influence of money out of our election process we will identify these states on our interactive map so that the public can click on each state and read the legislation themselves.


Step 6: Enforce

Once an Article V. Convention has been called we will continue to put pressure on our Legislators to do exactly what they called the convention to do. There will be so much media attention at this point due to the historic nature of the event that no Legislator would dare propose an amendment that the vast majority of the country does not agree with. Once an Article V convention has proposed amendments, then they would have to be ratified by three-fourths of our state governments (i.e. 38 states) in order to become part of the Constitution. That is why we are confident that an amendment to deal with money in politics in the United States is the only possible amendment that could come from such a convention.

Step 7: Rejoice

Celebrate the fact that we had the courage and persistence to accomplish something truly amazing and historic together.



Something to keep in mind:

Near the turn of the 20th century the states wanted a direct election of senators, and Nebraska was the first state to call for an Article V. Convention in 1893. By 1913 the movement had come within one state of reaching the necessary 2/3 threshold that would force a convention. When it became clear to Congress that the 17th Amendment was going to happen one way or another they decided to preempt a convention by passing it themselves. The threat of a convention is the strongest message we can send and the most effective way to restore our democracy in the United States. This can and must be done in a far shorter time period then it took for the 17th Amendment, then again, they didn't have the power of the internet and other technology we will be using in this battle.

http://www.wolf-pac.com/the_plan

[Image: GrumpyCat_01.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes EvolutionKills's post
13-05-2014, 08:20 AM
RE: What the hell is wrong with the United States?
(12-05-2014 11:27 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  First we need to fix our government and restore it to a functional republic before we can truly address any further issues.
Corporations are not people.

That's an excellent post, because if you think about it logically, what you describe as the 'solution' is actually the 'problem'. Start with "Corporations are not people"... That's what the corporate interests you condemn would like you to believe. If a person starts baking and selling cookies from her home, she's a person. And as such, she has responsibilities. If she gets careless and mixes in rat poison instead of flour, the victims can sue her and take everything she has. If she registers herself as a sole proprietorship (dba) she's still a person with the same responsibilities. But as soon as she registers herself as a corporation or llc, suddenly those responsibilities go away. She's protected from liability behind a corporate umbrella, and now if she mixes in rat poison, it's the corporation--which is just a piece of paper--that's responsible--not her. The people who own corporations try to convince that corporations are not people so that corporations get special laws and privileges which mortal humans do not have. But that's nonsense. Whether 3 people form a partnership, an s corp, a corporation, an llc, a government (like a local township), it's STILL those 3 people. They're all just abstract concepts to describe a group of people--but the group doesn't exist--the people in the group exist. If I ask you what a corporation looks like, what color and shape it has, and if you can touch a corporation, you can't answer, because corporations ARE people. And the type of group (corporation, government, etc.) doesn't determine if the group is "good" is not. There are lots of evil governments (N Korea) and very good corporations (Red Cross). One is not more democratic than others. A homeowners association (HOA) is a corporation, and generally every resident is a member and gets an equal vote. If those same people form a township (government) however they may be LESS democratic, not allow undocumented immigrants or those with criminal records to vote.

So you're hung up on the name given to the group (corporation)--rather than looking at it logically (what is the group). If you get Congress to ban corporations, the same people will simply get Congress to create a new entity type, let's say a GmbH (like in Germany), which is the same thing but with a name change. This is going to accomplish nothing.

Next, learn from history. The cause of the problem you describe with the moneyed interests getting all the power has been well understood for centuries. Whenever one central authority is given the power to use force and redistribute wealth and pick winners and losers it's inevitable that those who already have the wealth and power will have more influence over that authority and use it to distribute more and more wealth and power back to themselves in a never-ending vicious cycle. Let's not forget N Korea, like all communist countries, was formed by promising the people that if they gave a central authority (the government) absolute control over all wealth and property, the central authority would distribute it fairly so everyone was equal. The reality is that they just concentrated all the wealth with themselves so now you have 1 guy with the wealth of the nation and the rest die of starvation. That system has resulted in worse inequality even than the monarchies of medieval times.

In the US, the solution to this problem was also laid out 200+ years ago--it's called the Constitution. It's a blueprint for ensuring that what you described doesn't happen. The reason it did happen is simply because we ignored the constitution.

Thomas Jefferson said: "Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question.... I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves: and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion."

The solution is to disperse and distribute the power broadly, to the people. This is how classic liberals defined the difference. Note they show the centralization of power (from individual, to municipal, state, federal) and how much power is given at each level. Their view was to disperse the power as much as possible, with the greatest power at the individual level. Today, however, those in power have tricked the people into believing it's in their best interest to follow N. Korea's lead and concentrate and centralize the power.

[Image: political-spectrum.png?w=849]

One of the most obvious, egregious examples is monetary policy. We now have a fiat currency, the whole point of which is to allow the elite that print it to be able to invisibly transfer as much wealth to themselves as they want. Say 100 people setup a community on a deserted island and appoint one guy, John, to print some currency that everyone will use as a medium of exchange, and he prints 10,000 dollars bills, so everybody gets 100. Giving John the power to secretly print more money with no oversight is giving John the power to secretly transfer all the wealth to himself. He can just secretly print an extra 10,000 dollars for himself, effectively taking half the wealth of the community. The rest of the people won't know what's going on since they still have the same number of dollars in their hand. They'll just notice over time that their dollars buy less and less, while John accumulates more and more of the island's wealth. Same thing today. Here's a study of the ultimate ownership of multi-nationals, and it boils to 147 companies that control half the world's wealth. And who are those 147 companies? Mostly the companies that own the central banks and have tricked the people into giving them the power to redistribute all the wealth to themselves.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-05-2014, 08:26 AM (This post was last modified: 13-05-2014 08:30 AM by Luminon.)
RE: What the hell is wrong with the United States?
Please, lead this letter. You'll see why I am rather cynical about all this government business. My Bachelor's degree is mostly from law, including constitutional, fiscal and administrative (there's lots of economy thrown in). However, I have discovered that the legal and political science is in fact a pseudoscience, a practice no newer or more rational than Church.
http://hiteklife.com/politics/the_letter


(12-05-2014 11:27 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I'll take Option 5: The systematic corruption and purchasing of our elected officials by moneyed interests. First we need to fix our government and restore it to a functional republic before we can truly address any further issues.
It used to be the most limited and functional republic in the world. If you can keep it. Once you realize that constitution is just a piece of paper, you realize why a piece of paper won't hold a historical tendency of empires to expand.
[Image: A-Republic-if-you-can-keep-it-with-question.jpg]
We fuckin' can't!

(12-05-2014 11:27 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
Corporations are not people.
That's right. Corporations are legal fiction maintained by the government to allow people salvage the company money into private pockets and have limited liability only from what's left in the company.

(12-05-2014 11:27 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Money is not speech.
Actually, it is. Speech carries information. Money carries information too. The problem is not with money or speech, but when there are centrally controlled mass printers of money. Then it's not just pissing into the pool, it's dumping fecal tankers into the pool and then everyone wonders why the water level is rising and they call it inflation.

(12-05-2014 11:27 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  "We must reverse Citizens United, Restore our Democracy, and Save the Republic. Join the Fight for Free and Fair Elections in America!"[/align]
I love elections. Elections is the time when I go to take over the government to tell everyone what to do. And if they don't, they get thrown in jail. But I would really feel bad if anyone I disagree with was doing that. Which they do. And being scientifically minded, I only should do what works. Elections don't work, because they elect watchers and there is no way in the known universe to watch the watchers. If elections can change anything, they would be banned long ago. I still vote for anti-system parties, people I have met personally, but the heart is just not in it. I just hope they get more of the public money thanks to my vote.

(12-05-2014 11:27 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Our Ultimate Goal:
To restore true, representative democracy in the United States by pressuring our State Representatives to pass a much needed 28th Amendment to our Constitution which would end corporate personhood and publicly finance all elections in our country. There are only 2 ways to amend the Constitution. (1) Go through our federal government (2) Go through our State Legislators via an amendments convention of the states.
I find your faith in paper disturbing. People will be beaten, jailed, shot, disappeared, bribed, blackmailed and slandered long before anyone gets even close to any such goal. Even Ron Paul-affiliated supporters and candidates got that treatment. They weren't a big threat to the Obama/Romney charade, but there were Orwellian measures nonetheless. Now, Ron Paul isn't really a rock of virtue himself when it comes to adherence to his ideals, but he did trigger the system defenses.

(12-05-2014 11:27 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Wolf PAC believes that we can no longer count on our federal government to do what is in the best interest of the American people due to the unfettered amount of money they receive from outside organizations to fund their campaigns. We point to the failure of the Disclose Act as rock solid evidence that this would be a total waste of our time, effort, and money. We also point to the recent decision by the US Supreme Court to not even hear a case filed by Montana claiming it did not have to abide by Citizens United, as proof that state legislation is not a sufficient measure to solve this problem. We believe that we have no choice but to put an amendment in the hands of our State Legislators, who are not, at this moment in time, completely blinded by the influence of money and might actually do what 96% of the country wants...take away the massive influence that money has over our political process.
What about take away the massive influence that politics have on our money process?

You can not count on any government. You let your money be taken away and you become a second class citizen, not needed anymore. Work is love made visible. Money is work given wings.

(12-05-2014 11:27 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Step 1: Believe

Convince enough people to believe that we still have the power to change our country for the better and that it is still possible to have a true, representative democracy in the United States. Convince those same people that we have a plan that can work if they are willing to do any of these vital things for us; volunteer their skills, spread the word via telling others, posting our link through email or Facebook, donating, or becoming a Wolf PAC Member. Think about how much power we would have if just 1/3 of 1 percent of us were giving only $10 a month to this cause...we would have 10 million dollars a month to educate people and actually change the system for the better. You can become a member and help us have the power we need to fight fire with fire by Clicking Here.
Nobody represents yourself but yourself.
Demo-cracy? There is no such thing as "demos". The people can not have enough things in common that they would need or could possibly be represented in a central group of buffoons. If they were so smart, surely they could convince people to follow their wise advice without police and military.
In terms of statistical science, a proper representation of 300 million is at least a few million. Political representation is ineffective and unscientific.
And having any kind of -cracy is illogical. If people are bad and need to be governed, then we must get a pick of bad people to govern us because we are bad?

(12-05-2014 11:27 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Step 2: Action

Build a structure of volunteers in every state and district in the country that is capable of contacting their State Legislators at the drop of a hat. We know that State Legislators listen to people within their own districts and that if they get just three calls on any given issue they are going to pay attention to that issue. If we can build our network big enough to put pressure on State Legislators in every district in the country then we will win. That's why we really need you to sign up to volunteer. All we need you to do is be willing to make a call to your local State Legislators when needed.
A lot of effort to patch an inherently flawed system with next to no result and no improvement in the long term. Meanwhile the 1,4 million dollar debt per person collapses the economy.

(12-05-2014 11:27 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Step 3: Focus

Once we have found those states that are the most receptive to joining this battle with us we will focus our time, effort, and money on them until we get that vital and historic first state to call for an Article V. Convention for the purpose of limiting the influence that money has over our political process. According to Article V, Congress must call for an amendment-proposing convention, “on the application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States”, and therefore 34 state legislatures would have to submit applications.
But they have already tried that! They called that "prohibition".

(12-05-2014 11:27 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Step 4: Connect

After we have gained momentum from getting that first state "on the board" we will then begin to introduce State Legislators all around the country to each other via conference calls, webinars, etc. and show them that this a real possibility if they are willing to stand up together. Explain to them that a convention is the only way to restore true democracy to the United States and that they have a chance to be part of something incredibly historic.
We already have true democracy, it means voting with our wallets. We already have a true welfare, it means donating to charity our of personal good will and having money to spare thanks to no taxes. What you describe is an egg stage of oligarchy.

(12-05-2014 11:27 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Step 5: Demand

Make every election in the United States from now until this problem is solved a one issue election. If the influence of money in politics is at the root of all other issues in our country we must start voting like it. We will inform the public by running television commercials, radio ads, social media, internet ads, and using the media platform of the largest online news show in the world, The Young Turks. As we get more and more states to call for a convention with the purpose of getting the influence of money out of our election process we will identify these states on our interactive map so that the public can click on each state and read the legislation themselves.
Maybe you haven't noticed, but politics is superior to money. It can steal money by printing them on mass scale, or it can use IRS to steal them on mass scale.

(12-05-2014 11:27 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Step 6: Enforce

Once an Article V. Convention has been called we will continue to put pressure on our Legislators to do exactly what they called the convention to do. There will be so much media attention at this point due to the historic nature of the event that no Legislator would dare propose an amendment that the vast majority of the country does not agree with. Once an Article V convention has proposed amendments, then they would have to be ratified by three-fourths of our state governments (i.e. 38 states) in order to become part of the Constitution. That is why we are confident that an amendment to deal with money in politics in the United States is the only possible amendment that could come from such a convention.
Who will watch the enforcers?
And what the fuck do you mean by "putting pressure on" the legislators? There are some I wouldn't mind to find in a pressure cooker on New Guinea cannibal tribe. But enough pressure to change the mind of a legislator means enough to attract the pressure of his bodyguards.

(12-05-2014 11:27 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Step 7: Rejoice

Celebrate the fact that we had the courage and persistence to accomplish something truly amazing and historic together.
I study history and it's the dirtiest thing I've ever seen. And it still repeats.
[Image: 10290700_863965730284172_4501463804071377889_n.jpg]
...because you work and pay taxes.

(12-05-2014 11:27 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Something to keep in mind:

Near the turn of the 20th century the states wanted a direct election of senators, and Nebraska was the first state to call for an Article V. Convention in 1893. By 1913 the movement had come within one state of reaching the necessary 2/3 threshold that would force a convention. When it became clear to Congress that the 17th Amendment was going to happen one way or another they decided to preempt a convention by passing it themselves. The threat of a convention is the strongest message we can send and the most effective way to restore our democracy in the United States. This can and must be done in a far shorter time period then it took for the 17th Amendment, then again, they didn't have the power of the internet and other technology we will be using in this battle.

http://www.wolf-pac.com/the_plan
Sounds like Church history to me, papal elections and cardinal negotiations. Perhaps an arch-bishop making gigs here and there.
Golden bulla of Sicily, anyone? Encyclics. What a difference in the world.

[Image: 10297651_686524748081959_1195197879447512206_n.jpg]

If you claim there are nuances to principles, there are no nuances to getting arrested or shot for disobeying the power.
The Venus Project
FreeDomain Radio - The greatest philosophy show on the web!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-05-2014, 10:05 PM
RE: What the hell is wrong with the United States?
(13-05-2014 08:20 AM)frankksj Wrote:  
(12-05-2014 11:27 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  First we need to fix our government and restore it to a functional republic before we can truly address any further issues.
Corporations are not people.

That's an excellent post, because if you think about it logically, what you describe as the 'solution' is actually the 'problem'. Start with "Corporations are not people"... That's what the corporate interests you condemn would like you to believe. If a person starts baking and selling cookies from her home, she's a person. And as such, she has responsibilities. If she gets careless and mixes in rat poison instead of flour, the victims can sue her and take everything she has. If she registers herself as a sole proprietorship (dba) she's still a person with the same responsibilities. But as soon as she registers herself as a corporation or llc, suddenly those responsibilities go away. She's protected from liability behind a corporate umbrella, and now if she mixes in rat poison, it's the corporation--which is just a piece of paper--that's responsible--not her. The people who own corporations try to convince that corporations are not people so that corporations get special laws and privileges which mortal humans do not have. But that's nonsense. Whether 3 people form a partnership, an s corp, a corporation, an llc, a government (like a local township), it's STILL those 3 people. They're all just abstract concepts to describe a group of people--but the group doesn't exist--the people in the group exist. If I ask you what a corporation looks like, what color and shape it has, and if you can touch a corporation, you can't answer, because corporations ARE people. And the type of group (corporation, government, etc.) doesn't determine if the group is "good" is not. There are lots of evil governments (N Korea) and very good corporations (Red Cross). One is not more democratic than others. A homeowners association (HOA) is a corporation, and generally every resident is a member and gets an equal vote. If those same people form a township (government) however they may be LESS democratic, not allow undocumented immigrants or those with criminal records to vote.

So you're hung up on the name given to the group (corporation)--rather than looking at it logically (what is the group). If you get Congress to ban corporations, the same people will simply get Congress to create a new entity type, let's say a GmbH (like in Germany), which is the same thing but with a name change. This is going to accomplish nothing.

Next, learn from history. The cause of the problem you describe with the moneyed interests getting all the power has been well understood for centuries. Whenever one central authority is given the power to use force and redistribute wealth and pick winners and losers it's inevitable that those who already have the wealth and power will have more influence over that authority and use it to distribute more and more wealth and power back to themselves in a never-ending vicious cycle. Let's not forget N Korea, like all communist countries, was formed by promising the people that if they gave a central authority (the government) absolute control over all wealth and property, the central authority would distribute it fairly so everyone was equal. The reality is that they just concentrated all the wealth with themselves so now you have 1 guy with the wealth of the nation and the rest die of starvation. That system has resulted in worse inequality even than the monarchies of medieval times.

In the US, the solution to this problem was also laid out 200+ years ago--it's called the Constitution. It's a blueprint for ensuring that what you described doesn't happen. The reason it did happen is simply because we ignored the constitution.

Thomas Jefferson said: "Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question.... I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves: and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion."

The solution is to disperse and distribute the power broadly, to the people. This is how classic liberals defined the difference. Note they show the centralization of power (from individual, to municipal, state, federal) and how much power is given at each level. Their view was to disperse the power as much as possible, with the greatest power at the individual level. Today, however, those in power have tricked the people into believing it's in their best interest to follow N. Korea's lead and concentrate and centralize the power.

[Image: political-spectrum.png?w=849]

One of the most obvious, egregious examples is monetary policy. We now have a fiat currency, the whole point of which is to allow the elite that print it to be able to invisibly transfer as much wealth to themselves as they want. Say 100 people setup a community on a deserted island and appoint one guy, John, to print some currency that everyone will use as a medium of exchange, and he prints 10,000 dollars bills, so everybody gets 100. Giving John the power to secretly print more money with no oversight is giving John the power to secretly transfer all the wealth to himself. He can just secretly print an extra 10,000 dollars for himself, effectively taking half the wealth of the community. The rest of the people won't know what's going on since they still have the same number of dollars in their hand. They'll just notice over time that their dollars buy less and less, while John accumulates more and more of the island's wealth. Same thing today. Here's a study of the ultimate ownership of multi-nationals, and it boils to 147 companies that control half the world's wealth. And who are those 147 companies? Mostly the companies that own the central banks and have tricked the people into giving them the power to redistribute all the wealth to themselves.


Thanks frankksj for giving me an page dump tirade based off of one sentence that you misinterpreted the meaning of.


Corporation are not people vis-a-vis they shouldn't be treated like people legally. But they have a person's right to free speech, and the Supreme Court has ruled that money is speech and that multi-billion dollar corporations can spend unlimited amounts to influence politics. They have all of the advantages, none of the disadvantages, of political person-hood. This is something that needs to be corrected, and we cannot rely on the government to do it for us.


You really are a piece of work...

[Image: GrumpyCat_01.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes EvolutionKills's post
13-05-2014, 11:52 PM
RE: What the hell is wrong with the United States?
(13-05-2014 08:26 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Please, lead this letter. You'll see why I am rather cynical about all this government business. My Bachelor's degree is mostly from law, including constitutional, fiscal and administrative (there's lots of economy thrown in). However, I have discovered that the legal and political science is in fact a pseudoscience, a practice no newer or more rational than Church.
http://hiteklife.com/politics/the_letter

You know, by this point, we're all wary of any links you post because of your penchant for woo-woo bullshit. The letter is a very simple story that I got annoyed with, mainly because it lacked any nuance. The author keeps deriding you to 'think', yet can't seem to elaborate on anything outside of woefully one-sided caricatures.


(13-05-2014 08:26 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(12-05-2014 11:27 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I'll take Option 5: The systematic corruption and purchasing of our elected officials by moneyed interests. First we need to fix our government and restore it to a functional republic before we can truly address any further issues.
It used to be the most limited and functional republic in the world. If you can keep it. Once you realize that constitution is just a piece of paper, you realize why a piece of paper won't hold a historical tendency of empires to expand.
[Image: A-Republic-if-you-can-keep-it-with-question.jpg]
We fuckin' can't!

So your plan is to just give up, because history? Yeah, how about no?


(13-05-2014 08:26 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(12-05-2014 11:27 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Money is not speech.
Actually, it is. Speech carries information. Money carries information too. The problem is not with money or speech, but when there are centrally controlled mass printers of money. Then it's not just pissing into the pool, it's dumping fecal tankers into the pool and then everyone wonders why the water level is rising and they call it inflation.

My problem isn't with inflation, it's with the unlimited spending of money to influence politics. We can have a debate over currency and financial policy, but unless you want international corporations and banks buying the discussion for their own interests at the expense of the people, we need to get back to a functional republic first; and the first step to that is by going over the heads of the Supreme Court with a Constitutional Amendment to get money out of politics.


(13-05-2014 08:26 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(12-05-2014 11:27 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  "We must reverse Citizens United, Restore our Democracy, and Save the Republic. Join the Fight for Free and Fair Elections in America!"[/align]
I love elections. Elections is the time when I go to take over the government to tell everyone what to do. And if they don't, they get thrown in jail. But I would really feel bad if anyone I disagree with was doing that. Which they do. And being scientifically minded, I only should do what works. Elections don't work, because they elect watchers and there is no way in the known universe to watch the watchers. If elections can change anything, they would be banned long ago. I still vote for anti-system parties, people I have met personally, but the heart is just not in it. I just hope they get more of the public money thanks to my vote.

It's the system we have, and it worked well enough for a time. I'm not looking for a paradigm shift or a hypothetical perfect society or government. I'll leave it up to the Ayn Rand apologist and Libertarian fucktards to circle-jerk themselves off in the corner to their own political fantasies. The system we have can be vastly improved by getting money out of politics and having elections that are no longer bought.


(13-05-2014 08:26 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(12-05-2014 11:27 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Our Ultimate Goal:
To restore true, representative democracy in the United States by pressuring our State Representatives to pass a much needed 28th Amendment to our Constitution which would end corporate personhood and publicly finance all elections in our country. There are only 2 ways to amend the Constitution. (1) Go through our federal government (2) Go through our State Legislators via an amendments convention of the states.
I find your faith in paper disturbing. People will be beaten, jailed, shot, disappeared, bribed, blackmailed and slandered long before anyone gets even close to any such goal. Even Ron Paul-affiliated supporters and candidates got that treatment. They weren't a big threat to the Obama/Romney charade, but there were Orwellian measures nonetheless. Now, Ron Paul isn't really a rock of virtue himself when it comes to adherence to his ideals, but he did trigger the system defenses.

Yeah, except for the Civil Rights Movement (to get equal right to those who had none), Woman's Suffrage (the right to vote to those who didn't have it), the Prohibition of Alcohol, and the direct election of Senators; the government always went black-bag operation on everybody whenever we've gotten close to calling a convention in the past. What was that about studying history again? Cause if you did, you'd see that this has a history of working. Facepalm


(13-05-2014 08:26 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(12-05-2014 11:27 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Wolf PAC believes that we can no longer count on our federal government to do what is in the best interest of the American people due to the unfettered amount of money they receive from outside organizations to fund their campaigns. We point to the failure of the Disclose Act as rock solid evidence that this would be a total waste of our time, effort, and money. We also point to the recent decision by the US Supreme Court to not even hear a case filed by Montana claiming it did not have to abide by Citizens United, as proof that state legislation is not a sufficient measure to solve this problem. We believe that we have no choice but to put an amendment in the hands of our State Legislators, who are not, at this moment in time, completely blinded by the influence of money and might actually do what 96% of the country wants...take away the massive influence that money has over our political process.
What about take away the massive influence that politics have on our money process?

You can not count on any government. You let your money be taken away and you become a second class citizen, not needed anymore. Work is love made visible. Money is work given wings.

Would the state of affairs be improved if corporations, banks, and the top 1% weren't able to easily and openly buy all of our elected representatives: Yes or No?


(13-05-2014 08:26 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(12-05-2014 11:27 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Step 1: Believe

Convince enough people to believe that we still have the power to change our country for the better and that it is still possible to have a true, representative democracy in the United States. Convince those same people that we have a plan that can work if they are willing to do any of these vital things for us; volunteer their skills, spread the word via telling others, posting our link through email or Facebook, donating, or becoming a Wolf PAC Member. Think about how much power we would have if just 1/3 of 1 percent of us were giving only $10 a month to this cause...we would have 10 million dollars a month to educate people and actually change the system for the better. You can become a member and help us have the power we need to fight fire with fire by Clicking Here.
Nobody represents yourself but yourself.
Demo-cracy? There is no such thing as "demos". The people can not have enough things in common that they would need or could possibly be represented in a central group of buffoons. If they were so smart, surely they could convince people to follow their wise advice without police and military.
In terms of statistical science, a proper representation of 300 million is at least a few million. Political representation is ineffective and unscientific.
And having any kind of -cracy is illogical. If people are bad and need to be governed, then we must get a pick of bad people to govern us because we are bad?

I really wish you'd have just posted that you were an anarchist libertarian and that you'd be off circle-jerking in the corner, so that I wouldn't have to see you doing it. You don't want to do anything constructive, but rather just whine and piss and moan and daydream about hypotheticals. Fine, I get it. Now make way for those who actually want to do something to fix the situation.


(13-05-2014 08:26 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(12-05-2014 11:27 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Step 2: Action

Build a structure of volunteers in every state and district in the country that is capable of contacting their State Legislators at the drop of a hat. We know that State Legislators listen to people within their own districts and that if they get just three calls on any given issue they are going to pay attention to that issue. If we can build our network big enough to put pressure on State Legislators in every district in the country then we will win. That's why we really need you to sign up to volunteer. All we need you to do is be willing to make a call to your local State Legislators when needed.
A lot of effort to patch an inherently flawed system with next to no result and no improvement in the long term. Meanwhile the 1,4 million dollar debt per person collapses the economy.

More whining and corner circle-jerking.


(13-05-2014 08:26 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(12-05-2014 11:27 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Step 3: Focus

Once we have found those states that are the most receptive to joining this battle with us we will focus our time, effort, and money on them until we get that vital and historic first state to call for an Article V. Convention for the purpose of limiting the influence that money has over our political process. According to Article V, Congress must call for an amendment-proposing convention, “on the application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States”, and therefore 34 state legislatures would have to submit applications.
But they have already tried that! They called that "prohibition".

The convention worked, didn't it? They got an amendment, didn't they jackass? Go circle-jerk someplace else.


(13-05-2014 08:26 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(12-05-2014 11:27 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Step 4: Connect

After we have gained momentum from getting that first state "on the board" we will then begin to introduce State Legislators all around the country to each other via conference calls, webinars, etc. and show them that this a real possibility if they are willing to stand up together. Explain to them that a convention is the only way to restore true democracy to the United States and that they have a chance to be part of something incredibly historic.
We already have true democracy, it means voting with our wallets. We already have a true welfare, it means donating to charity our of personal good will and having money to spare thanks to no taxes. What you describe is an egg stage of oligarchy.

More Libertarian wet dreams; the corner is over there.


(13-05-2014 08:26 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(12-05-2014 11:27 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Step 5: Demand

Make every election in the United States from now until this problem is solved a one issue election. If the influence of money in politics is at the root of all other issues in our country we must start voting like it. We will inform the public by running television commercials, radio ads, social media, internet ads, and using the media platform of the largest online news show in the world, The Young Turks. As we get more and more states to call for a convention with the purpose of getting the influence of money out of our election process we will identify these states on our interactive map so that the public can click on each state and read the legislation themselves.
Maybe you haven't noticed, but politics is superior to money. It can steal money by printing them on mass scale, or it can use IRS to steal them on mass scale.

More Anarchist wet dreams; the corner is over there.


(13-05-2014 08:26 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(12-05-2014 11:27 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Step 6: Enforce

Once an Article V. Convention has been called we will continue to put pressure on our Legislators to do exactly what they called the convention to do. There will be so much media attention at this point due to the historic nature of the event that no Legislator would dare propose an amendment that the vast majority of the country does not agree with. Once an Article V convention has proposed amendments, then they would have to be ratified by three-fourths of our state governments (i.e. 38 states) in order to become part of the Constitution. That is why we are confident that an amendment to deal with money in politics in the United States is the only possible amendment that could come from such a convention.
Who will watch the enforcers?
And what the fuck do you mean by "putting pressure on" the legislators? There are some I wouldn't mind to find in a pressure cooker on New Guinea cannibal tribe. But enough pressure to change the mind of a legislator means enough to attract the pressure of his bodyguards.

See aforementioned past examples of successful calls for a Constitutional Conventions and the positive changes they've had in improving our evolving government apparatus.


(13-05-2014 08:26 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(12-05-2014 11:27 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Step 7: Rejoice

Celebrate the fact that we had the courage and persistence to accomplish something truly amazing and historic together.
I study history and it's the dirtiest thing I've ever seen. And it still repeats.
[Image: 10290700_863965730284172_4501463804071377889_n.jpg]
...because you work and pay taxes.

Once again, the corner is over there.


(13-05-2014 08:26 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(12-05-2014 11:27 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Something to keep in mind:

Near the turn of the 20th century the states wanted a direct election of senators, and Nebraska was the first state to call for an Article V. Convention in 1893. By 1913 the movement had come within one state of reaching the necessary 2/3 threshold that would force a convention. When it became clear to Congress that the 17th Amendment was going to happen one way or another they decided to preempt a convention by passing it themselves. The threat of a convention is the strongest message we can send and the most effective way to restore our democracy in the United States. This can and must be done in a far shorter time period then it took for the 17th Amendment, then again, they didn't have the power of the internet and other technology we will be using in this battle.

http://www.wolf-pac.com/the_plan
Sounds like Church history to me, papal elections and cardinal negotiations. Perhaps an arch-bishop making gigs here and there.
Golden bulla of Sicily, anyone? Encyclics. What a difference in the world.

[Image: 10297651_686524748081959_1195197879447512206_n.jpg]

Go fuck yourself. You can sit here and whine and bemoan the current state of affairs while furiously masturbating to your Ayn Rand born Libertarian fantasies, for which we should all be grateful will never come to fruition. While you do that in the corner, I'll be over here trying to actually do something to improve the lives of my fellow citizens.

[Image: GrumpyCat_01.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes EvolutionKills's post
14-05-2014, 02:34 AM (This post was last modified: 14-05-2014 04:31 AM by Luminon.)
RE: What the hell is wrong with the United States?
(13-05-2014 11:52 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  You know, by this point, we're all wary of any links you post because of your penchant for woo-woo bullshit. The letter is a very simple story that I got annoyed with, mainly because it lacked any nuance. The author keeps deriding you to 'think', yet can't seem to elaborate on anything outside of woefully one-sided caricatures.
What if the state is one-sided? What if it actually can't do anything without violence? And once it can do violence, each generation of politicians lines their pockets a bit more and grants the state a bit greater powers.

(13-05-2014 11:52 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  So your plan is to just give up, because history? Yeah, how about no?
Because of history? No, because of reality! Because of facts, because of empirical evaluation of government's efficiency doing evil and preventing people doing more good by taking their money away.
Giving up the state means starting with freedom. There is nothing that state does that private voluntary companies couldn't do hell a lot better and cheaper. Except the things that people actually don't want, like making everything more expensive. What about a compulsion-free life style?

(13-05-2014 11:52 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  My problem isn't with inflation, it's with the unlimited spending of money to influence politics. We can have a debate over currency and financial policy, but unless you want international corporations and banks buying the discussion for their own interests at the expense of the people, we need to get back to a functional republic first; and the first step to that is by going over the heads of the Supreme Court with a Constitutional Amendment to get money out of politics.
Good point! So, let's not have politics. That will do the job.

(13-05-2014 11:52 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  It's the system we have, and it worked well enough for a time. I'm not looking for a paradigm shift or a hypothetical perfect society or government. I'll leave it up to the Ayn Rand apologist and Libertarian fucktards to circle-jerk themselves off in the corner to their own political fantasies. The system we have can be vastly improved by getting money out of politics and having elections that are no longer bought.
I'm not looking for a paradigm shift either, what I mean there is this paradigm backslide. I would like to keep my modern paradigm of civil society, going around, shopping and making deals with people. But every once a while there comes a third player to the table, and it says you MUST do this, you CAN'T do that, give me RANSOM. This ancient monstrosity is actually an offshoot of monarchy or absolutism.

Kings used to be warriors who traveled their territory, dominated it with force, visited cities, enforced ransom, ate out their larders and judged disputes. When the territory became too big and agenda too long, they delegated their powers to the executive and judiciary branches. With democratization, England first, everything else later, the common people wanted their cut from the king's court and a say in the making laws. Later the king became the president and the law-making went to representatives. But it's not less silly, it's as if Martin Luther won the fight against the Catholic Church, so that now every parish has a priest to send their suggestions for new gospels to the Vatican for approval. If so, they become part of the Bible and everyone believes in them and they are enforced by Holy Inquisition. And tithes aren't 10 %, they're more like 50 % in total.
That's how silly the government actually is, it's a blast from the past and in our daily life we have moved on long ago.

I don't know about Libertarians much, I have heard some cultish things about Ayn Rand. Well, I don't need her to appreciate voluntary win/win deals and to desire freedom from the state's 50% tithes.
What I learned comes from the Austrian school of economy, stuff like how private institutions can do everything better, including courts, army, currency, stock markets and social insurance.

(13-05-2014 11:52 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Yeah, except for the Civil Rights Movement (to get equal right to those who had none), Woman's Suffrage (the right to vote to those who didn't have it), the Prohibition of Alcohol, and the direct election of Senators; the government always went black-bag operation on everybody whenever we've gotten close to calling a convention in the past. What was that about studying history again? Cause if you did, you'd see that this has a history of working. Facepalm

Civil rights movement? You mean equality before the law? That's like getting the Church to say that all men are equally sinful. Women's right to vote is the same, it's like women's right to receive the holy cracker and wine. It's an improvement, all right, but it doesn't fix the problem.

Things are as they are, rationally and empirically in reality. Laws deny that reality and instead introduce an alternate reality, the legal world. The first law of the law says, that nobody has any natural rights and freedoms, and then the officials get to make them up all anew by writing them on paper as they see fit, without asking for consent. The prohibition of alcohol was a failure that redirected great funds to the mafia, btw. It was the same failure as war on drugs. The reality is out there and government laws prevent us from seeing it. The history of the government is the history of denying reality, denying economy, statistics and logic. It denies philosophy, except the only successful philosophers were those who sucked up to the state. It's a fuckin' folklore, this flag, eagle and anthem bullshit, social contract mythology and kids reciting Orwellian pledge in schools every morning. It's fake like sport clubs, only the hooligans are THE main players.

Hey, some people put weights on their feet when they run. It would be great if I proved that even with my woo-woo bullshit I am still more rational than people who believe in the secular church of tax farming.
[Image: 1622798_787107467975095_5002930489591768715_n.jpg]

(13-05-2014 11:52 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Would the state of affairs be improved if corporations, banks, and the top 1% weren't able to easily and openly buy all of our elected representatives: Yes or No?
No. Removal of some interest groups from the government only gives more power to other interest groups. If there were no interest groups in the government, there would be no government left.
Protecting the state from the economy sounds nice, but the main thing is protecting the economy from the state. Economy keeps us alive by producing goods and services, the state produces nothing. Economy without the state is like a fish without the fisherman.
It may seem vaguely unfair if some tax cattle is made to go to the butcher first and some not at all, but the problem is, why there is the butcher in the first place. You asked about improving the state of affairs, this is it.

(13-05-2014 11:52 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I really wish you'd have just posted that you were an anarchist libertarian and that you'd be off circle-jerking in the corner, so that I wouldn't have to see you doing it. You don't want to do anything constructive, but rather just whine and piss and moan and daydream about hypotheticals. Fine, I get it. Now make way for those who actually want to do something to fix the situation.
I'm not any kind of -an or some other label, I just studied economy and logic. State makes no sense logically or economically, it's a historical vestige just like Catholic Church. Is there a way to "fix" Catholic Church? If it was fixed, there would be no Church left.

(13-05-2014 11:52 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  The convention worked, didn't it? They got an amendment, didn't they jackass? Go circle-jerk someplace else.
I don't know what do you mean by "working" since the civilian and government interests are contrary.

(13-05-2014 11:52 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  See aforementioned past examples of successful calls for a Constitutional Conventions and the positive changes they've had in improving our evolving government apparatus.
Yeah, predators evolving mimicry is a wonderful sight, but I prefer to watch it on National Geographic.

(13-05-2014 11:52 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Go fuck yourself. You can sit here and whine and bemoan the current state of affairs while furiously masturbating to your Ayn Rand born Libertarian fantasies, for which we should all be grateful will never come to fruition. While you do that in the corner, I'll be over here trying to actually do something to improve the lives of my fellow citizens.
Well, and you do what? Whining and bemoaning that politicians get money on their campaign? I smell double standard here. So you want politicians to be bought after the campaign, not before the campaign, so damn what?
My taste is a bit more kinky, I like the German... I mean, Austrian stuff, Böhm-Bawerk, von Mises, Menger... Some French kisses from Frederic Bastiat. I'm an European guy, you know. There is no mention of Rand here whatsoever.
But I hope you will be as vocal as you can be with this attitude of yours. Also, if having 535 congressmen is good, why not have 600? More goodness! Let's have 1000. Better yet, let's have 10,000 congressmen, so that people are really well represented. And if 50 % taxes are good, why not 60 %? Why not 80 %? C'mon, let's just get it over and give all our money to the government. If people in the bureaus know what to do with them better than us, then they should have it all. Most of American history used these money to fund wars, so apparently funding wars is good. Again, please say your opinion loudly and clearly, so we know who likes to get their fellow citizens murdered or jailed and raped in world's largest rape rooms. I can't fap to this. I guess you can.

If you claim there are nuances to principles, there are no nuances to getting arrested or shot for disobeying the power.
The Venus Project
FreeDomain Radio - The greatest philosophy show on the web!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-05-2014, 11:07 AM
RE: What the hell is wrong with the United States?
(13-05-2014 11:52 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Go fuck yourself. You can sit here and whine and bemoan the current state of affairs while furiously masturbating to your Ayn Rand born Libertarian fantasies, for which we should all be grateful will never come to fruition. While you do that in the corner, I'll be over here trying to actually do something to improve the lives of my fellow citizens.

Really? Look at, for example, the economic freedom index, which measures who much government interferes in the economy. In other words, it's a measure of how close a country comes to the libertarian ideal of letting everyone exercise free will without government force and coercion.

Now, open Excel's chart viewer, sort those countries based on their "libertarian-ness rating", and put it that on the X-Axis. Now find some totally unrelated source that measures quality of life, such as life expectancy, per-capita income or savings, infant mortality, etc. Put that on the Y-Axis and what do you get? No matter what aspect of quality of life you're measuring, the closer a country gets to the libertarian ideal, the better the quality of life. The more libertarian a country gets, the more people live long, healthy, happy, prosperous lives. The further you get, the more people die young, destitute and miserable. If you question the accuracy of this, I challenge you to post on this thread even one quality of life measurement, any measurable aspect of human life, that is not significantly better in countries that are closer to the libertarian ideal. I already mentioned several quality of life indexes, and in all of those, the trend is clear. Can you find one that doesn't fit this trend?

Given that reality, tell us, please what you are actually doing to improve the lives of your fellow citizens? As far as I can tell you're doing a disservice telling them to run away from the path that leads to long, healthy, happy, prosperous lives, and instead go down the path where people die young, destitute and miserable.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-06-2014, 04:21 AM (This post was last modified: 26-06-2014 04:39 AM by Lunda.)
RE: What the hell is wrong with the United States?
Quote:I'm at a cheap public university and I borrow 20k+ per year to pay fees and tuition. That's on top of thousands of dollars in scholarships and grants.

Does this seem insane to anyone else?

20k?

I live in Norway and pay about $200 a year in tuition at the University which has been rated as the 69th best university in the world in 2013by Shanghai Jiao Tong University's Academic Ranking of World Universities and Times Higher Education World University Rankings ranked UiO among the 201-225th.

Yes it sounds extremely insane.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-06-2014, 12:47 PM
RE: What the hell is wrong with the United States?
(26-06-2014 04:21 AM)Lunda Wrote:  20k?

I live in Norway and pay about $200 a year in tuition at the University which has been rated as the 69th best university in the world in 2013by Shanghai Jiao Tong University's Academic Ranking of World Universities and Times Higher Education World University Rankings ranked UiO among the 201-225th.

Yes it sounds extremely insane.
Maybe the rich national oil fields of Norway have something to do with the price of education Wink Also, waging no wars in the present and not participating very much in WW1 and WW2 helps enormously. It could be still better, Norway could have less regulations.
Hell, it could have no government, that would make the education even better.


And, I think this image is very fitting as a response to arguments that will stand in everyone's minds. The schools and government and government schools...get it? Wink
[Image: tumblr_n77nbxUKSc1ssb95mo1_500.png]

If you claim there are nuances to principles, there are no nuances to getting arrested or shot for disobeying the power.
The Venus Project
FreeDomain Radio - The greatest philosophy show on the web!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-06-2014, 12:44 AM
RE: What the hell is wrong with the United States?
Quote:Maybe the rich national oil fields of Norway have something to do with the price of education Wink

Some, but Denmark has no tuition free system, nor does Finland (who BTW has been recognized as having the best educational system in the world) and they don't have oil. It has more to do with what the government is willing to spend money in. And in a functioning democracy, that reflects on the will of the people.

Quote:Also, waging no wars in the present
We are a part of the Nato forces in Afghanistan, you know. Still it's not an astronomical expense.

Quote:And not participating very much in WW1 and WW2 helps enormously.

We were neutral in WW1 and profited of it, but the Germans stripped us of most of our valuables when they occupied us in WW2.

Quote: It could be still better, Norway could have less regulations.
Hell, it could have no government, that would make the education even better.


Actually it's because of the government and their regulations the school system is so affordable. If you compare it to colleges and universities without any regulations, they can (and do) charge whatever they can get away with. And that is a lot.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: