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What the hell is wrong with the United States?
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26-07-2014, 07:29 AM
RE: What the hell is wrong with the United States?
(25-07-2014 09:10 PM)Chas Wrote:  Your second-hand 'knowledge' of American education is pathetic. Where do you get your 'facts'?

There are many excellent public schools in the U.S. that actually educate children.

NO CUZ GUMMINT BE EVIL N BRANWASHIN SO U R SHEEPLE TROLOLOLOLOLOL

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26-07-2014, 07:48 AM (This post was last modified: 26-07-2014 07:51 AM by Luminon.)
RE: What the hell is wrong with the United States?
(25-07-2014 09:10 PM)Chas Wrote:  Your second-hand 'knowledge' of American education is pathetic. Where do you get your 'facts'?

There are many excellent public schools in the U.S. that actually educate children.
And I know a tall Chinese man! Does that mean Chinese people are tall? No, if the debate is about a general principle, then talking about exceptions does not overturn the argument. Especially if you do not mention which specific public schools actually educate children and how it was measured. Even if you did, it only proves that other public schools (vast majority) don't. Which means your "argument" is pathetic, it's an argument called sometimes "Not All Women Are Like That", which adds nothing to the discussion.

I think it was Dr. Ron Miller's book, What Are Schools For? I got it shipped in paper a few years ago. It's an older book, but considering the decline of American economy and rise of criminality and unemployment, American public schools didn't get any better.
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26-07-2014, 08:07 AM
RE: What the hell is wrong with the United States?
(26-07-2014 07:48 AM)Luminon Wrote:  I think it was Dr. Ron Miller's book, What Are Schools For? I got it shipped in paper a few years ago. It's an older book, but considering the decline of American economy and rise of criminality and unemployment, American public schools didn't get any better.

Wut? That was published in 1990.

Please let me know if the following graphs scream "decline" to you:
Unemployment:
[Image: latest_numbers_LNS14000000_1990_2014_all...6_data.gif]
Crime:
[Image: Violent_Crime_Rates_in_the_United_States.svg]

The economy and unemployment rate (everywhere, not just the USA) have fluctuated up and down since then. Crime rates have gone down the entire time.

Read a book. Everything you say is wrong. It's a problem.

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26-07-2014, 01:10 PM
RE: What the hell is wrong with the United States?
(26-07-2014 07:48 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(25-07-2014 09:10 PM)Chas Wrote:  Your second-hand 'knowledge' of American education is pathetic. Where do you get your 'facts'?

There are many excellent public schools in the U.S. that actually educate children.
And I know a tall Chinese man! Does that mean Chinese people are tall? No, if the debate is about a general principle, then talking about exceptions does not overturn the argument. Especially if you do not mention which specific public schools actually educate children and how it was measured. Even if you did, it only proves that other public schools (vast majority) don't. Which means your "argument" is pathetic, it's an argument called sometimes "Not All Women Are Like That", which adds nothing to the discussion.

I think it was Dr. Ron Miller's book, What Are Schools For? I got it shipped in paper a few years ago. It's an older book, but considering the decline of American economy and rise of criminality and unemployment, American public schools didn't get any better.

When I say 'many' it means 'most'. Schools are managed locally, either by town or school district. Students in the U.S. generally get a good education, not brainwashing by secret government agents.

Seriously, dude, get some actual facts.

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26-07-2014, 02:11 PM
RE: What the hell is wrong with the United States?
(26-07-2014 01:10 PM)Chas Wrote:  When I say 'many' it means 'most'. Schools are managed locally, either by town or school district. Students in the U.S. generally get a good education, not brainwashing by secret government agents.

Seriously, dude, get some actual facts.

Ah, but Chas, you're forgetting the most important thing. "Facts" are just what THE MAN wants you to believe! Wake up, sheeple! We've clearly all been brainwashed! Because government schools liberal Nazi monsanto reptiloid dark energy conspiracy! IT ALL MAKES SENSE MAN WAKE UP. You are educated stupid! Only the guiding True Believers Visionaries exhibiting Proper Thought like our self-appointed luminary above can possible overcome the horribly Freudian childhood abuse we obviously all suffered!

It must be true! I read it on a website!

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26-07-2014, 02:18 PM (This post was last modified: 26-07-2014 02:21 PM by Luminon.)
RE: What the hell is wrong with the United States?
(26-07-2014 01:10 PM)Chas Wrote:  When I say 'many' it means 'most'. Schools are managed locally, either by town or school district. Students in the U.S. generally get a good education, not brainwashing by secret government agents.

Seriously, dude, get some actual facts.
I really don't know what do you mean by that. Let's just say that Keynesianism is to me what craniology is to you and "legal science" is like the Ten commandments to you. Maybe they sound vaguely legit to you, but let's say I wouldn't spot a mistake in a mathematical equation. I have my Bc. from them and they still are arbitrary.
So, an example. If I was a kid at school again, I'd consider this a quality education:
http://media.freedomainradio.com/feed/FD...iberty.mp3
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26-07-2014, 02:43 PM
RE: What the hell is wrong with the United States?
(26-07-2014 08:07 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Wut? That was published in 1990.

Please let me know if the following graphs scream "decline" to you:
Unemployment:

The economy and unemployment rate (everywhere, not just the USA) have fluctuated up and down since then. Crime rates have gone down the entire time.

Read a book. Everything you say is wrong. It's a problem.
The school population is being drugged into compliance. That is the reality of the U.S. school system, almost 20 % of boys grow up on ADHD drugs and that costs them about 10 % of brain mass. Doctors probably prescribe the drugs to every child dragged in by the parent - and if they don't, the parent just takes the child to a doctor who will.
http://www.esquire.com/features/drugging...n-boy-0414

[Image: figure-1.jpg]

Also, do you take into account public sector spending, household wealth and jail population? The prison population in there are probably mostly non-violent drug crimes.
[Image: 1294494988-image2.gif]

Middle class household slide into the poor class. Rich (guvmin' cronies) are getting richer.
[Image: wealth-change-epi.jpg]
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26-07-2014, 02:53 PM
RE: What the hell is wrong with the United States?
(26-07-2014 02:43 PM)Luminon Wrote:  The school population is being drugged into compliance. That is the reality of the U.S. school system, almost 20 % of boys grow up on ADHD drugs and that costs them about 10 % of brain mass.

Citation needed.

(26-07-2014 02:43 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Doctors probably prescribe the drugs to every child dragged in by the parent - and if they don't, the parent just takes the child to a doctor who will.

Citation needed.

(26-07-2014 02:43 PM)Luminon Wrote:  http://www.esquire.com/features/drugging...n-boy-0414

[Image: figure-1.jpg]

Note the decline from peak rates. Your sources contradict each other. Did you read them?

Also: America is 5% of the global population.

Nice job moving goalposts, though. From "all governments/schools" (fallacious to begin with) to "American governments/schools" to "some American governments/schools"...

But it's insane troll logic regardless. "Stimulants are overprescribed" is a statement with some truth to it. "THEREFORE GUMMINT CONSPIRCY WAKE UP U SHEEPLE" is a sublimely beautiful non sequitur.

So there's that.

(related: improving medical technology has led to higher diagnosis rates for almost everything, because a part of that is improving detection and recognition)

(26-07-2014 02:43 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Also, do you take into account public sector spending, household wealth and jail population? The prison population in there are probably mostly non-violent drug crimes.
[Image: 1294494988-image2.gif]

Your point being? Your original statement was incorrect. Now you're moving goalposts to argue against something nobody said.

(26-07-2014 02:43 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Middle class household slide into the poor class. Rich (guvmin' cronies) are getting richer.
[Image: wealth-change-epi.jpg]

That has nothing to do with your original claims. Read a book.

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27-07-2014, 10:49 AM
RE: What the hell is wrong with the United States?
(26-07-2014 02:18 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(26-07-2014 01:10 PM)Chas Wrote:  When I say 'many' it means 'most'. Schools are managed locally, either by town or school district. Students in the U.S. generally get a good education, not brainwashing by secret government agents.

Seriously, dude, get some actual facts.
I really don't know what do you mean by that. Let's just say that Keynesianism is to me what craniology is to you and "legal science" is like the Ten commandments to you. Maybe they sound vaguely legit to you, but let's say I wouldn't spot a mistake in a mathematical equation. I have my Bc. from them and they still are arbitrary.
So, an example. If I was a kid at school again, I'd consider this a quality education:
http://media.freedomainradio.com/feed/FD...iberty.mp3

Could you possibly restate that in a coherent fashion? Consider

I couldn't parse your gobbledygook.

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27-07-2014, 12:55 PM (This post was last modified: 27-07-2014 12:59 PM by Luminon.)
RE: What the hell is wrong with the United States?
(27-07-2014 10:49 AM)Chas Wrote:  Could you possibly restate that in a coherent fashion? Consider

I couldn't parse your gobbledygook.
Crime, poverty and wars haven't been eradicated yet. Education (incl. parenting) is the way to do this, because human beings are involved, and education controls the quality of human beings. If you consider public school education and parenting valid, with the existence of wars, crime and poverty, then you are not applying standards of science to education. Science works and it has worked perfectly fine with many deadly infection diseases and technical problems. But what is done with crime, wars and poverty (law, politics and economy) is completely unscientific. Life gets better, but only as a side effect of better natural sciences. The humanities could give similar benefits as natural sciences, because humans are reality processing machines. But what is really done is not science, it's culture.
And I think even scientists do culture instead of science when it comes to humanities. They have this huge blind spot, 100 % testing at physics, 0 % testing at culture.
Correction: looks like scientists have started opposing one small part of culture, known as religion. That's nice, but it's like when one person at a party in a Mexican restaurant promises not to fart ever again.
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