What variety of atheist are you?
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25-08-2011, 09:27 PM (This post was last modified: 25-08-2011 11:45 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: What variety of atheist are you?
(25-08-2011 08:52 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  @Mark Fulton Imagine that I'm genuinely right and know it. Then imagine that the people here rejected my position repeatedly even when I presented it as logically and simply as I could. Then the picture changes a bit when I use that quote. The problem isn't that I see the weakness of my position, but that you don't see the strength of it. So I feel essentially like you've plugged your ears, so I decided to stop talking. That's why I said I'm done with debates here. (btw, when I say you here, I don't just mean Mark Fulton)

What a shame! (I mean it). Does that mean you're not going to post any more? Ever?

Hey...I wonder whether possibly I can share a "light bulb" moment with you. Give up having to be "right". Be open to others. Surely you must be sick of people telling you they know the way things are? Well...you shouldn't do that to others. Hey...we are all guilty of trying too hard to convince others. We all ( me included) need to let go of the need to impose our beliefs on others. Sure we should tell them what we believe, but if they don't agree, well that's how it is. I've spent 6 years studying the history of the Bible nearly full time. I reckon I know a lot and I reckon I'm "right", and I really want to tell anyone who will listen, but I have to constantly remind myself to really listen and "get" what people are telling me. Otherwise I just become another "preacher" LOL.

Now...I genuinely value your contributions. I don't agree with them usually, but I value them, so I would like you to stay. If you gotta go, well I wish you the best. Mark
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25-08-2011, 09:36 PM
RE: What variety of atheist are you?
@DeepThought Yes I've looked into those things and I've seen some explinations for the various examples used for irreducible complexity. Some are better than others. My point bringing it up though, was that the very idea of irreducible complexity demands constant answers since it only takes a single irreducibly complex structure to destroy the whole idea of evolution. This makes evolution an argument from ignorance in that way. When coupled with abiogenesis, irreducible complexity is at its best. As for the RNA World Theory, I have looked into it, but I suppose there might be some more things I could look in to, so I shall. You've ignored the fact that my reasoning was "since it can't be x, it must be not x". You've skewed what my reasoning really was based on how you think about me. I've looked into many other parts of science and I'm more convinced than I ever was that creationism is right (despite the stupidity of many arguments, though that happens on both sides).
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25-08-2011, 09:42 PM
RE: What variety of atheist are you?
(25-08-2011 09:36 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  @DeepThought Yes I've looked into those things and I've seen some explinations for the various examples used for irreducible complexity. Some are better than others. My point bringing it up though, was that the very idea of irreducible complexity demands constant answers since it only takes a single irreducibly complex structure to destroy the whole idea of evolution. This makes evolution an argument from ignorance in that way. When coupled with abiogenesis, irreducible complexity is at its best. As for the RNA World Theory, I have looked into it, but I suppose there might be some more things I could look in to, so I shall. You've ignored the fact that my reasoning was "since it can't be x, it must be not x". You've skewed what my reasoning really was based on how you think about me. I've looked into many other parts of science and I'm more convinced than I ever was that creationism is right (despite the stupidity of many arguments, though that happens on both sides).

Hi, glad you are still here.

Re "the very idea of irreducible complexity demands constant answers since it only takes a single irreducibly complex structure to destroy the whole idea of evolution."
Mate...you've completely lost me. Could you expand on this a little so I understand you?
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25-08-2011, 09:55 PM
RE: What variety of atheist are you?
@Mark Fulton Honestly, my plan was for this to be the last thread I post in. I'm glad you valued my input, but I do feel like my efforts are wasted here. Even my most logical arguments seem to be wasted when this is my audience. I do intend to continue my search for answers though. God bless. (and I did say that for the irony as well as the meaning)
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25-08-2011, 09:59 PM
RE: What variety of atheist are you?
I don't like the irreducible complexity because it's easy to toss out there requiring no work for the speaker. Like you said, I can say my computer speakers are irreducibly complex and now you have to prove I am wrong by disconnecting the left speaker.

It's just another attempt at shifting the burden of proof. As it stands there are things which humanity still doesn't know. Claiming they are irreducible complex doesn't prove that they really are. How can you prove that without knowing enough about it? I'm going based on precedent since many examples creationists have used have been adequately explained. It seems the more we understand about systems the more we see a slow, incremental progression rather than a sudden leap.

If I see actual evidence for irreducible complexity I would welcome it as something new and exciting!
It still wouldn't prove the existence of a personal god though.
Things like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recurrent_laryngeal_nerve don't make sense in terms of Intelligent Design.

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
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25-08-2011, 10:03 PM
RE: What variety of atheist are you?
(25-08-2011 09:55 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  @Mark Fulton Honestly, my plan was for this to be the last thread I post in. I'm glad you valued my input, but I do feel like my efforts are wasted here. Even my most logical arguments seem to be wasted when this is my audience. I do intend to continue my search for answers though. God bless. (and I did say that for the irony as well as the meaning)

Don't feel that, stay here and let's try to work this shit out together. ... could be fun.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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25-08-2011, 10:27 PM
RE: What variety of atheist are you?
(25-08-2011 03:13 PM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  A question about the precambrian rabbit. Would it still have the same DNA sequence or would it be an identical yet separate species? As long as it's DNA suggests it had no later ancestors it would just prove that some ideas happen more than once.

Interesting you refer to it as an idea yet claim no intelligence was involved in its formation.
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25-08-2011, 10:34 PM
RE: What variety of atheist are you?
(25-08-2011 10:27 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  
(25-08-2011 03:13 PM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  A question about the precambrian rabbit. Would it still have the same DNA sequence or would it be an identical yet separate species? As long as it's DNA suggests it had no later ancestors it would just prove that some ideas happen more than once.
Interesting you refer to it as an idea yet claim no intelligence was involved in its formation.

Yeah, I've been saying that ever since I quit Christianity. It's one of the many things that convinced me.

The human body, and life in general only makes sense in the context of evolution. It's not intelligent, and many times it's cruel. Have you seen the parasites and diseases, not just affecting humans but all animals. There are even parasites invading other parasites. It's nuts. That is not design.

I see no way that life was designed.

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
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25-08-2011, 10:50 PM (This post was last modified: 25-08-2011 11:07 PM by BlackEyedGhost.)
RE: What variety of atheist are you?
@DeepThought We both bear the burden of proof in places. My point with irreducible complexity is fairly specific to abiogenesis though. Life itself is irreducibly complex because from a naturalist standpoint it must be able to both reproduce itself and evolve. These two things mean that it must be able to copy and add variation to information which in and of itself requires a fairly complex mechanism. At this point I don't know why I took the time to explain that, but have fun ripping it appart if that's what you want. I don't know why I explained that, but do whatever you will with it. I really don't care anymore.
@DeepThought I see no way life was designed as it is now (at least not by an O^3 creator).
(25-08-2011 10:03 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Don't feel that, stay here and let's try to work this shit out together. ... could be fun.

Work what out? I know how to think like an atheist at this point. I don't need to stay here and have my logic looked at as nonsense. I can't stand the disappointment of seeing such intelligent people act that way.
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25-08-2011, 11:22 PM
RE: What variety of atheist are you?
(25-08-2011 10:50 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  Work what out? I know how to think like an atheist at this point. I don't need to stay here and have my logic looked at as nonsense. I can't stand the disappointment of seeing such intelligent people act that way.

My bad, nothing to work out there.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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