What variety of atheist are you?
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21-08-2011, 12:26 AM
 
RE: What variety of atheist are you?
@BlackEyedGhost
I have read your posts above and, in my opinion, they add up to: we have no freaking idea WHEN/HOW/IF the universe/life started and we will call our ignorance 'god'.

Fair enough.

(We could have easily called it 'tops' -- 'spot' spelled backwards)

Smile

And now I am out of this circular and completely pointless debate.

I almost allowed myself to be sucked into arguing about a total non-issue.

Who cares how it started? If it started?

I am a lot more concerned about how it may end, in my lifetime, due to unbelievable stupidity, ignorance, cowardice, self-serving hypocrisy and almost total abandonment of reason.
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21-08-2011, 03:03 AM
RE: What variety of atheist are you?
This thread is going down hill lolz.

Actually I read an interesting article in Discovery magazine about abiogensis... I think I will scan it and post it tonight for people to look at (is that allowed... or should I just paraphrase it?)

I fail to see how any evidence points to a creator... please enlighten us with that evidence...

I've always described the creation argument like this....

I have an object in a box, there is no way for you to open the box and see the object. I tell you the color is not orange. On what grounds do you have to tell me the color of the object?

[Image: 1471821-futurama_bender_s_big_score_imag...er-1-1.jpg]
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21-08-2011, 06:33 AM
RE: What variety of atheist are you?
(20-08-2011 11:08 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  @LilithPride Slight contradictions like that are often in support of the Gospels being separate accounts of the same events. If people were to write about fake events, they would generally make sure to have the same facts and not contradict at all. Also, many official records of the time were lost in a fire. (wow that sounds stupid without being able to remember details off the top of my head) In any case which accounts were you referring to that should have had Jesus in them? Accounts of Him could easily have been written 30 years later by people who knew Him well. He was only around for like 30 years, so He wouldn't have had as much time as Lincoln. People during that time were mostly illiterate too. As for the other gospels, they were written much later (except likely the gospel of Thomas), so they're much less reliable than the canon.
(20-08-2011 10:53 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I'm the only kind of atheist there is, one who is ready and willing to believe given evidence. At this point I don't think I even require compelling or even ample or even sufficient evidence. If there was just any evidence at all I'd reconsider. Until then, well there's this shit I gotta do called trying to maximize my moments 'cause until I see any evidence to the contrary I'm pretty sure they're finite.

Have you looked into abiogenesis? There's plenty of evidence for at least a creator there. Btw, what do you mean by "maximize my moments"? Just having fun or more than that?

Quote:Accounts of Him could easily have been written 30 years later by people who knew Him well.

And who would that be? The Gospel accounts say little if anything about this messiah's life. Your missing 30 years of his life. The Gospels are nothing more than contradictory writings and are far from being any kind of eyewitness testimony to a Jewish God man.

The Gospel writers wrote what they imagined not what they saw.

Quote:As for the other gospels, they were written much later (except likely the gospel of Thomas), so they're much less reliable than the canon

They were all written much later 70 to 130 years after the supposed death of this Jewish God man and again can hardly be considered eyewitness testimony.

Quote:If people were to write about fake events, they would generally make sure to have the same facts and not contradict at all.

The problem you have here is that the church failed to invent a life for him and by the time they got around to doing it the lie had done it's job.

Quote:Also, many official records of the time were lost in a fire.

Yeah and christians were the main cause of those fires why do you think that was? Maybe to hide and cover up documents that would have exposed the religion for what it was?
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21-08-2011, 07:34 AM
RE: What variety of atheist are you?
Sorry for feeding the off topic monster everybody =p. I would be interested to see the article Monkey, maybe send a scan of it to photobucket and link it?

And by other views I meant all of the other Jesus cults that existed around the time they decided the canon and chose only certain ones.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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21-08-2011, 01:06 PM (This post was last modified: 21-08-2011 05:57 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: What variety of atheist are you?
(20-08-2011 11:08 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  Have you looked into abiogenesis? There's plenty of evidence for at least a creator there.

Sure. I know about the primordial soup and life spontaneously erupting in the most inhospitable environments like the hydrothermal vents. Don't see how that is evidence of some external "creator." And let's be clear, the Christians really don't give a shit about a "creator", if they did the Big Bang and evolution would suffice. What they really give a shit about is saving their own pathetic asses with some incomprehensible untenable promise of a postmortem preservation of identity.

(20-08-2011 11:08 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  Btw, what do you mean by "maximize my moments"? Just having fun or more than that?

I'm not a hedonist. Wheeler's participatory universe makes the most sense to me. So maximizing my moments means trying to always participate fully and suck the marrow out of every moment I experience. To experience this moment as fully and completely as I am capable. Don't see how you can possibly do that if you believe that there is something after this. The difference between me now and my previous Christian self is that instead of thinking there's something after this, I now think there is something much much more to this. Back in the day, us hippies used to call it "Be here now."

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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21-08-2011, 02:52 PM
RE: What variety of atheist are you?
Right, I'm not reading through every post, so if I'm missing anything, well, sorry about that.

Anyway, if a christian tells me "You were never really a christian," I'm not going to argue with them. I believed in Yahweh in kind of the same way I believe in Australia. They both existed, but it wasn't really that important to my life. There was the occasional exception, but for the most part, it didn't impact my life. My conversion was kind of by accident, when I saw a youtube atheist debunk some garbage pro-vegetarian video (I don't have a problem with vegetarians, but the video itself was trying to argue that humans aren't natural meat eaters). I liked his response, so I checked out his other stuff, and he asked a couple of questions that I had always wondered about, but never pursued because I just didn't care that much. However, once I actually sat down to think about them, I realized that it wasn't that there was some answer for me to get if I took the time to care about it, but that there wasn't any answer at all.

Anyway, nowadays I'd consider myself a gnostic atheist in the only sense that the word means anything. Everything I understand about the universe through physics shows that EVERYTHING proceeds from simpler beginnings. As confusing and counter-intuitive as the strangest physics is... it's still simple. There just isn't any room for a grand intelligence always existing, or being the first thing to exist from when time began. Now, gnostic doesn't mean absolute certainty (Or if it does, then the term is useless as a philosophical position, as we usually don't apply philosophical positions to the mentally ill), but that I'm about as certain that there are no gods as I am certain about anything. I could be proven wrong, but I don't think it likely.

Of course, all the gods worshipped around the world are total bullshit. It's really easy to disprove them. Watch.

1: God X exists, has incredible powers, and wants worship
2: This God would be able to demonstrate its powers plainly in order to obtain believers, which is the first step to worship.
3: No God has demonstrated itself plainly.
Conclusion: No God with any meaningful powers that wants to be worshiped exists.

And that's before getting into all the times religious beliefs contradict science.

I'm also an anti-theist. I don't think there's any good done by religion that can't be achieved without it, and plenty of evil that takes something like religion to happen. Religion isn't the only thing that can cause good people to do evil, but it's by far the most common and easy way to do so.

I hate it even down to the small levels. I am genuinely sad when I hear some person, who worked hard for what they have, chalk up all their success to god. These people earned what they have, and they don't think they had anything to do with it. I can't stand that kind of attitude, it's so pitiable. Even the simple saying of grace before eating ignores the farmers, shippers, supermarkets, and the work of the person who bought it. When god is allowing others to starve, thanking him just seems wrong to me.

And lastly, I can't stand the irrationality that comes with religion. Thinking rationally, understanding the world as it really is, is a wonderful thing. But religion at best casts that aside, and at worst, turns the natural world into something ugly, and calls reason a whore. I just can't stand listening to otherwise sane people engage in the massive levels of cognitive dissonance that allows them to excuse the monster god of the Bible. That allows them to accept evidence and reason everywhere else in life, but consider it meaningless in the face of their religion.

That is, I think, the worst part. Most fundamentalists are probably nasty people to begin with. Fundies cherry pick as much as anyone else. It's just that the good people cherry pick the good bits. But the unreason is required to be a theist, and it doesn't have to be blowing up buildings for it to damage people. Everyone has the right to do whatever they want to their own minds and bodies, as long as they don't hurt anyone else. But that doesn't mean I have to like it. And that's why I despise religion, even in the kindest moderates.
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21-08-2011, 03:24 PM
RE: What variety of atheist are you?
(21-08-2011 01:06 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(21-08-2011 06:33 AM)WaronReligion Wrote:  Have you looked into abiogenesis? There's plenty of evidence for at least a creator there.

Sure. I know about the primordial soup and life spontaneously erupting in the most inhospitable environments like the hydrothermal vents. Don't see how that is evidence of some external "creator." And let's be clear, the Christians really don't give a shit about a "creator", if they did the Big Bang and evolution would suffice. What they really give a shit about is saving their own pathetic asses with some incomprehensible untenable promise of a postmortem preservation of identity.

(21-08-2011 06:33 AM)WaronReligion Wrote:  Btw, what do you mean by "maximize my moments"? Just having fun or more than that?

I'm not a hedonist. Wheeler's participatory universe makes the most sense to me. So maximizing my moments means trying to always participate fully and suck the marrow out of every moment I experience. To experience this moment as fully and completely as I am capable. Don't see how you can possibly do that if you believe that there is something after this. The difference between me now and my previous Christian self is that instead of thinking there's something after this, I now think there is something much much more to this. Back in the day, us hippies used to call it "Be here now."

I did not write any of the crap your spouting you better go back and check the poster.
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21-08-2011, 04:00 PM
RE: What variety of atheist are you?
I'm still patiently waiting for BlackEyedGhost to tell us all what manner of atheist he/she is.

Their posts look eerily familiar.

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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21-08-2011, 05:55 PM (This post was last modified: 21-08-2011 05:59 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: What variety of atheist are you?
(21-08-2011 03:24 PM)WaronReligion Wrote:  I did not write any of the crap your spouting you better go back and check the poster.

Wotthehell, looks like I fucked up the quotes royally. My bad WaronReligion, let me go back and try to fix them. ... There fixed. And I don't know what the fuck happened 'cause I did that when I was sober. That'll teach me. My apologies.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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21-08-2011, 11:34 PM
RE: What variety of atheist are you?
(17-08-2011 06:13 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  Are you a hardcore "there is no God and I will never believe such a thing" atheist? Are you an agnostic atheist? Do you believe that Jesus existed or was even a good man? Do you hate anything and everything related to God and/or Jesus? What's your philosophy on God and life? Things like that.

(17-08-2011 06:13 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  Are you a hardcore "there is no God and I will never believe such a thing" atheist? Are you an agnostic atheist? Do you believe that Jesus existed or was even a good man? Do you hate anything and everything related to God and/or Jesus? What's your philosophy on God and life? Things like that.

What I tell my son is that I'm an agnostic, but functionally an atheist. I think someone who declares there is no god is just as foolhardy as someone who says god is without a doubt real. So sure, if there were an all-powerful god, then that god could make himself invisible & hide all evidence of his existence. I mean, that's what it means to be all-powerful, right?

But then it wouldn't be the god of the xtians, or of just about any other religion I can think of, because those are all predicated on a god that involves himself deeply in the lives of humans.

And that leads to the cliffs notes version of my criticism of religion, especially xtianity. A god who loves humans and is all-powerful would never let the world exist as it does, so either god is not real, or he's totally taken himself out of the loop, & in either case, that's not the xtian god, or really any god. The whole reason we are supposed to please & obey is that various gods are watching, rewarding, punishing.

As for Jesus & did he even exist, I don't think we can ever answer that. Especially when you get stuff like xtians bleating at xmas time about how it's the baby jesus' bday, yet astronomers reckon that any noteworthy celestial anomalies would have occurred in July. And speaking with the deep knowledge of humanity you get from being a parent, I'll tell you that the inability of my son & his playmate to have even remotely similar stories on how that window broke even tho they were both there & it happened 5 minutes ago, causes me to have strong doubts about the accuracy of stories passed word-of-mouth about something 2000 years ago.

Every time you say you don't believe, Jesus rips the wings off a fairy. - SkepticalParenting.com
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