What variety of atheist are you?
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22-08-2011, 09:56 PM (This post was last modified: 22-08-2011 10:00 PM by BlackEyedGhost.)
RE: What variety of atheist are you?
No one here seems to even be willing to consider that "something" with some intelligence created mankind. This isn't even necessarily an argument for an O^3 god. No one took the time to look past their prejudice and personal philosophies and see what I'm saying as it is. And many of you say I'M stupid, ignorant, prejudiced, close-minded and whatever else you want to throw on there? Jesus was right when He said "Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine..." I'm done with debates here.
As for those of you who care, look into necessary factors for life existing, ireducible complexity, and the historicity of Jesus. Never a bad idea to read about Jesus in the New Testament either. Good stuff.
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22-08-2011, 10:02 PM
RE: What variety of atheist are you?
(20-08-2011 10:03 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  @Peterkin In that instance, sure there's forensics, but what about someone further back? How about Constantine or Socrates (just chose them randomly)? No forensics for their bodies. Your next argument is from a lack of proof. However, there's many archaelogical finds that uphold the credability of the Gospel accounts and things similar. After that point you just attacked me and I feel no obligation to respond. You also brought up many things I wasn't talking about.
@DeepThought I know no matter what I say people are going to think my purpose is converting people. That's honestly not the case. My purpose is to understand the other side, to bring light to things that many are ignorant of, and to give Christianity back at least some sort of good name since so many are destroying it. My personal theology says that if you love the things that Jesus was, then even if you totally reject Him in name it doesn't matter. It's about who He is, not just who people think He is. So if you see me trying to present the other side as indoctrination, then, yes, that's what I'm doing. Btw, that camel thing made me laugh. Big Grin
(20-08-2011 09:40 PM)Efrx86 Wrote:  Ever heard of the Miller-Urey experiment?

Yup. They didn't have any sort of proof that the earth's early atmosphere was comprised of those chemicals. If you start with inert chemicals like you would find on most planets (nitrogen, carbon-dioxide, etc.), they won't react. Even if you got the aminos like in the experiment, only 20 are used in life forms, so they would need to get isolated somehow from the others. And aminos alone aren't nearly enough to have a life form.

Re " My purpose is to understand the other side"....I congratulate you for that.

Re "to bring light to things that many are ignorant of"....please fire away....start with archaelogical proof for the gospels please.

Re "My personal theology says that if you love the things that Jesus was, then even if you totally reject Him in name it doesn't matter. It's about who He is, not just who people think He is." BLOODY HELL! Have you actually read the gospels? In their entirety? Do you genuinely believe Jesus was a good bloke? If so ...tell me why? You will think I'm being blasphemous or disrespectful....but....the character Jesus, as presented in the gospels, was a loser! He was uneducated, xenophobic, intolerant, inconsistent and threatened violence. He may have been charismatic, and he told the odd good parable, but to imply he was some sort of philosopher is just a joke.
I could carry on and on about this, but would like to hear EXACTLY WHY you think jesus was so special. ( Please though...leave the son of god who died for our sins out of it...let's not even go there at the moment).
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22-08-2011, 10:20 PM
RE: What variety of atheist are you?
(22-08-2011 09:56 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  No one here seems to even be willing to consider that "something" with some intelligence created mankind. This isn't even necessarily an argument for an O^3 god. No one took the time to look past their prejudice and personal philosophies and see what I'm saying as it is. And many of you say I'M stupid, ignorant, prejudiced, close-minded and whatever else you want to throw on there? Jesus was right when He said "Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine..." I'm done with debates here.
As for those of you who care, look into necessary factors for life existing, ireducible complexity, and the historicity of Jesus. Never a bad idea to read about Jesus in the New Testament either. Good stuff.

You do whatever is best for you. I'm ok with your decision.

I don't think I said anything about you being stupid etc in this thread, though you clearly have an agenda which is ok in my opinion even if you don't want to admit it.

Everything that Christians have claimed was irreducibly complex has been shown not to be. It is ignorant to toss out things that are demonstrably false. <- there.... I have said it now. Tongue

"do not throw your pearls before swine" haha - is that where Mabus gets his Atheist Piglet ideas from?
*allows bible quote to roll of the shoulder*

I get what you were saying. You think that a personal god is required for life to exist. I say why? and Prove it. You can't prove it so why does it matter?

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
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23-08-2011, 01:30 AM
RE: What variety of atheist are you?
I just gave the bible quote some thought and wonder, is it implying that the bible contains some pearls of wisdom? Because for the large part I disagree.

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
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23-08-2011, 02:01 AM
RE: What variety of atheist are you?
To be honest, I'm a little pissed I was called 'swine' for not believing in an impossible fairy tale.

You are fine to stay here and keep pathetically bleating your opinion on god and the universe, it's a pretty free forum, but don't expect people to take you seriously until you back your claims.

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23-08-2011, 03:01 AM
RE: What variety of atheist are you?
(22-08-2011 09:56 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  No one here seems to even be willing to consider that "something" with some intelligence created mankind. This isn't even necessarily an argument for an O^3 god. No one took the time to look past their prejudice and personal philosophies and see what I'm saying as it is. And many of you say I'M stupid, ignorant, prejudiced, close-minded and whatever else you want to throw on there? Jesus was right when He said "Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine..." I'm done with debates here.
As for those of you who care, look into necessary factors for life existing, ireducible complexity, and the historicity of Jesus. Never a bad idea to read about Jesus in the New Testament either. Good stuff.

Hi black eyed ghost....could you cool your jets for a moment? I'm not accusing you of being any of those things...and I can't read that in any posts from anyone else either. I do however, understand that you feel "outgunned". Try not to take it personally. I will admit that in other forums when everyone disagreed with me I got upset...it is easy to do. The thing is to try to be REAL. If you make a claim...back it up. If you can't back it up, just admit you can't....and voila! You have learned something. I commonly get "pulled into line" by others. It doesn't matter too much (usually) whether we get proven "right" or "wrong"...what is important is that we understand other's perspective and also that we learn from other's knowledge. I hope this doesn't sound patronising because it's not meant to be. Please stay in the conversation and back up your claims if you can. I want to learn from you. I want to hear about why you think Jesus is so great, the archaelogical evidence for the gospels etc etc. regards, Mark
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23-08-2011, 07:10 AM (This post was last modified: 23-08-2011 07:41 AM by angry_liberal.)
RE: What variety of atheist are you?
Sorry I was not here when this thread started and I cannot read it now but I want to say my bit.

My mother is an Austrian Catholic (and I think really a secret atheist - I only found out when I became anti-religion though it fits.) My Dad is quite a spiritual Anglican but has dabbled in Buddhism, Teilhard de Chardin, Carl Jung and so on. However we pretty much agree on religion in general now. For different reasons both my parents seemed to think it wrong to attempt to influence the beliefs of their children.

So when I was growing up I was (and still am) interested in science but somehow how I did not truly make it as a scientist. When I was young I was interested in religion and briefly attracted to Islam. Although noone was forcing me, the religious question seemed very urgent if confusing and atheism did not seem like a realistic option. So when I went to university I was very low emotionally, and easy meat for the Christian evangelicals.

A struggled for about 5 years trying to make some sort of intellectual evangelical Christianity work. I think it helped me deal with some personal inadequacies but maybe also made me much more judgmental. Eventually I could stand the sheer weight of my beliefs no more and my faith crumbled to dust. When the dust settled I was an agnostic but sympathetic to Christianity.

Then I met my Polish Catholic wife. In her family to question Catholicism is tantamount to questioning Polish sovereignty so I am not entirely clear how she ended up marrying me. Under the influence of my crazy mother-in-law, the Islamist terroist attacks, reading Dawkins, Harris, Aysan Hirsi Ali etc and finding that most English speaking are reluctant to permit religion to be criticized and I found myself very much in the Dawkins camp.

Recently I have been grappling with where this leaves me. I think my current status is as follows:
  • The existence of God cannot be proved or disproved. Period.
  • The existence of God or truth of any religion is rediculously unlikely.
  • Most (if not all) religious practice is damaging and reprehensible.
  • Atheists as a group need to work harder at engaging constructively with religous people at least at a personal level. (Not sure there is any point for poor Mr Dawkins.)
  • Atheists as a group need to think more about the source of morality and how to work for a more moral society. Destroying religion (or at least achieving a secular public space) is not enough.
  • I am quite challenged by some of C.S.Lewis' ideas about Christianity in "Mere Christianity". Based upon this I don't think I can any more sustain the claim that believing a religion is actually amoral.
  • I feel most comfortable with the label "atheist" as I see no point in beating about the bush.
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23-08-2011, 08:48 AM (This post was last modified: 23-08-2011 08:52 AM by advancedatheist.)
RE: What variety of atheist are you?
(22-08-2011 09:56 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  Never a bad idea to read about Jesus in the New Testament either. Good stuff.

Apparently christians haven't figured out yet that more and more people just don't care about Jesus. Just look at all the youngsters who reluctantly read the bible when their elders make them, but enthusiastically read about Harry Potter even if they have to defy their elders' prohibitions to do so. The Jesus story just bores most modern people who have better alternatives to narrate their experiences in life.

(22-08-2011 11:42 AM)sy2502 Wrote:  
(20-08-2011 11:08 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  Have you looked into abiogenesis? There's plenty of evidence for at least a creator there. Btw, what do you mean by "maximize my moments"? Just having fun or more than that?

BlackEyedGhost, with all due respect, the fact we currently don't know how life originated is NOT proof of a creator. All it proves is the fact we don't know something.

I look forward to the day when the following becomes the received wisdom:

Of course scientists can create life! What do you think life is - some kind of miracle?
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23-08-2011, 08:59 AM (This post was last modified: 23-08-2011 09:05 AM by BlackEyedGhost.)
RE: What variety of atheist are you?
@Mark Fulton I know what you mean with the situation you're describing and believe me, this is different. I'm being deliberately ignored when I present rational arguments.
@angry_liberal Thanks for the input. It's good to know a back-story as well as your current beliefs. Big Grin
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23-08-2011, 11:15 AM
RE: What variety of atheist are you?
(22-08-2011 09:56 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  No one here seems to even be willing to consider that "something" with some intelligence created mankind.
How do you know none of us has ever considered it? I am pretty sure you don't know me at all, so how can you say how much thought I have put into the subject? Do you think you are the first creationist I have ever met? Or that I had never heard of creationism until you mentioned it? Personally I can assure you I have given it a great deal of thought, and after carefully weighting all evidence, I have reached a conclusion. I am open to changing my mind if new evidence comes my way. So far no such evidence has come up.

Quote:No one took the time to look past their prejudice and personal philosophies and see what I'm saying as it is.

Why would you assume people's position is based on prejudice? And what's YOURS based on? Have YOU taken the time to look past your prejudice and personal philosophy?
I know what you are saying. And you'll be happy to know your arguments are nothing new. All you have come up with was a variation of the good old argument "we don't know how X happened, therefore god exists and made X happen". It is not a good argument regardless of one's personal beliefs.

Quote:And many of you say I'M stupid, ignorant, prejudiced, close-minded and whatever else you want to throw on there?

I don't remember seeing anybody in this thread call you any of the above.

Quote:Jesus was right when He said "Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine..."
That's offensive and uncalled for. Calling people dogs and swine because they don't agree with you? Dodgy

Quote:As for those of you who care, look into necessary factors for life existing, ireducible complexity, and the historicity of Jesus. Never a bad idea to read about Jesus in the New Testament either. Good stuff.
I have. To great extent. I found nothing compelling about it.

English is not my first language. If you think I am being mean, ask me. It could be just a wording problem.
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