What would change in the world if...
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11-04-2017, 07:27 PM
RE: What would change in the world if...
(11-04-2017 07:04 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(11-04-2017 06:26 PM)julep Wrote:  I disagree. Humans are tribal, perhaps irreversibly so, and expert rationalizers.

The Christians who hate Muslims, and vice versa, would find a different set of reasons to cite. However, the biggest unspoken reason would still be there: not our genetic tribe, resources are limited, our tribe needs to thrive, outsiders get in the way and need to be eliminated/defanged in some way.
I agree with your assessment on tribes and limited resources and such.
But if there is no longer a Christian tribe, no longer a Mulsim tribe then there are less tribes (tribes still exist, but less of them)

I do not subscribe to the belief that a person has a "bad soul" metaphorically speaking. So I don't think we have "bad" people who flock to religion so that they can have a tribe and oppose people from other tribes.
I don't think, if you take away the religious tribe, that these people will then seek out non religious tribes from which they can remain in conflict with yet other tribes.

I think the religion has an influence on people. They preach to them, they have some "leader" up on the pulpit screaming out hell fire and damnation upon gays and Muslims and the like. Surely that must create a conflict in some people who otherwise wouldn't have taken up this "war" against "evil".

Us atheists are mostly OK with gays, we don't make it our business or battle to stop gays from loving each other. It's not that we are "good" people. We just haven't got the influences of Church and bible study and peers (within our "exclusive" group).
We don't have an exclusive group, we don't have these battle lines drawn up. It is not a reflection on our own "goodness" but merely lack of influence from religion.

Do away with religion and people will likely not pick on gays anymore and of course there won't be religion conflicts (e.g. Christian vs Muslim). Still there will be other conflicts, but I don't think "bad"people will be trading their religious conflict for something equally as horrid.

I wish I could agree, but when there isn't religion there's class, country, family, IQ, attractiveness, education, and, worst of all, people who don't live by your moral code but are prospering anyway--so they must be bad in some occult way. There is no clear and absolute connection between effort and reward, and there's always the need for something/someone to blame when plans go pear-shaped.

I don't think it would necessarily be immediate, the new set of rationalizations that somehow shore up the status quo to separate those who are divided now along religious and ethnic lines, but it would happen. It's possible that the new status quo would ignore gays, but I've met too many people who had some stupid visceral reaction to the idea of homosexuality to think gays wouldn't continue to be marginalized. Unfortunately.

I'll always wish that people can be as rational as you think they'd be, Stevil. That would be grand.
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12-04-2017, 12:44 PM
RE: What would change in the world if...
(11-04-2017 07:27 PM)julep Wrote:  I wish I could agree, but when there isn't religion there's class, country, family, IQ, attractiveness, education, and, worst of all, people who don't live by your moral code but are prospering anyway--so they must be bad in some occult way.
At the moment there is class, country, family, IQ, attractiveness, education as well as religion.

In the hypothetical of removing religion we get class, country, family, IQ, attractiveness, education

So all that is changed is that religion is removed, the other groups aren't a replacement of religion, they were always there. Perhaps somewhat overshadowed by religion. But if you get rid of the worst then the lessers will get the focus of appearing bad. Well this is a lesser bad (excuse my English). It is a "bad" that was always there but didn't get focus because it was overshadowed. Removing religion wouldn't make the lessers worse due to "bad" people moving from religious groups into these other groups. People belong to many groups simultaneously. These people don't need to move, they are already there.
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