What would it take to build a human caperble of flying with wings and look human?
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03-09-2017, 01:02 PM
RE: What would it take to build a human caperble of flying with wings and look human?
(03-09-2017 09:41 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  enormouse creature

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03-09-2017, 02:58 PM
RE: What would it take to build a human caperble of flying with wings and look human?
(03-09-2017 10:26 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Certain aspects of biophysics do not scale well and flight is one of them. That's why you don't see flying creatures much larger than a vulture. There are larger creatures that can glide but even those are rare.

Body mass increases proportional to the cube of an organism's size. At 9' 6" your first challenge will be to get Sanguinius just to stand upright without crushing his ankles. It'll be even worse once you dress the poor critter in plate armour.

Wing area only increases with the square of size. All of the muscles needed to power those wings and the respiratory and circulatory systems that back those up scale even worse.

You could resort to technological solutions but the wings would have to beat hundreds of times a second, resulting in something that looked like a misbegotten hummingbird. The powerpack would be enormous and I don't even want to think about heat disappation.

All in all, there's a reason that the authors had to resort to magic.

Undoubtedly though i am curious since the Primarchs wasn´t born but rather created from scratch in a large tank of sorts.
You could essentially do whatever you wanted with the human genome, write the genetic code from scratch.

Wouldn´t it be possible to create stronger human muscle and tissues without increasing them in mass.
Kinda like if normal human muscles was made out of a dna code called ABBA, then if you switched it around and maybe added some letters so the code might read BCAD you might get muscles that was 3 times as strong as normal human muscles, but still only had normal human size.
Same with bone structure you would re-write the genetic codes making the infant Primarch develop bones, that where 3 times as strong as normal human bones, but didn´t seem like they where abnormally large compared to the size of the body.

Or would genetic tampering only get you so far and eventually you would have to incorporate carbon nanotube into the bones in order to get them to be strong enough to carry the weight?
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03-09-2017, 03:02 PM
RE: What would it take to build a human caperble of flying with wings and look human?
(03-09-2017 08:56 AM)Erikjust Wrote:  I am a huge fan of Warhammer 40k and 30k/Horus Heresy.

Also since 40k Theories have been making a video series where he looks at how the different things in the 40k universe might be possible from a scientific point of view.
So naturally my mind wandered towards the Space Marines and Primarchs and how they might be possible.

Now one thing to notice about the Primarchs is that unlike Space Marines, the Primarchs wasn´t born but literally created in a large container from scratch.
They where designed to be "born" as babies and grow to adulthood within a few years.

Now since this is the 40k universe we are talking about a great deal of magic was involved in their creation.
But say we left out the Magic and just concentrated on what is scientifically possible.
How could you create the Primarchs?

One of the Primarchs i want to look at is Sanguinius who basically looked like a 9 ft 6 (so around 2,74 meters tall give or take) human with large white wings.

In the books the wings started as seeds on his back but grew to fully fledged wings which he learned to use, even when wearing power armor though it tires him a great deal doing so.

So lets say you want to create Sanguinius, and have him use the wings and still look human, could it be done with normal biology alone or would we have to start thinking various cybernetic implants capable of growing with the child into adulthood?

Or is Sanguinius one of those things where no matter what we do just remains in the realms of science fiction.

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03-09-2017, 04:14 PM
RE: What would it take to build a human caperble of flying with wings and look human?
Strap a 540 Lycoming to your ass.....


You'll fly.



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03-09-2017, 05:27 PM
RE: What would it take to build a human caperble of flying with wings and look human?
(03-09-2017 09:41 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(03-09-2017 09:30 AM)Rockblossom Wrote:  Humans find all kinds of ways to fly.

Flying Man

But organic wings? Not unless we can get a whole lot lighter with hollow bones like birds.

http://www.yalescientific.org/2013/03/qa...umans-fly/

Of course, that's in Earth's gravity. Find a place with lower gravity, and you could be in business growing humans with (functional) wings. It would have to be a planet or manmade ship with atmosphere, because no air = nothing for wings to push against. So no flying Moon Men.

In the history of our planet, there have been enormouse creature capable of self-powered flight. However to get something human sized airborne would require quite inhuman adaptations.

The Quetzalcoatlus (Late Cretaceous, North America) had an estimated 10 meter wingspan and weighed 200~250 kilograms. The thing was a flying killer giraffe.

[Image: BvO3MOMCYAEzC0r.jpg]

Reading the Wiki on it, there's speculation that it could have flown 8-10,000 miles, at 80 mph, at 15,000 feet.

Amazing, if it pans out.
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03-09-2017, 05:29 PM
RE: What would it take to build a human caperble of flying with wings and look human?
Less G

Let us pray for element zero.

I wanna mass effect.

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03-09-2017, 07:30 PM
RE: What would it take to build a human caperble of flying with wings and look human?
Let's start with a humanoid that is extremely light in weight, honeycomb like bones, very small & very few organs with green, photosynthetic skin. It doesn't eat. It doesn't have lungs. It's basically a human plant.

It can glide on thermals and for a short burst of time, it can flap it's wings to move quickly to avoid danger.

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03-09-2017, 07:38 PM
RE: What would it take to build a human caperble of flying with wings and look human?
(03-09-2017 02:58 PM)Erikjust Wrote:  Undoubtedly though i am curious since the Primarchs wasn´t born but rather created from scratch in a large tank of sorts.
You could essentially do whatever you wanted with the human genome, write the genetic code from scratch.

While I've read a few of the WH40K books (Gaunt's Ghosts are my favoutire. Wish they'd finish the series) I'm really not all that up on the law and cannon.

You've got to remember that the original fluff was written some time late last century. Our knowledge of stuff has gotten better since then.

Yah, I love putting things in those terms... Big Grin

(03-09-2017 02:58 PM)Erikjust Wrote:  Wouldn´t it be possible to create stronger human muscle and tissues without increasing them in mass.
Kinda like if normal human muscles was made out of a dna code called ABBA, then if you switched it around and maybe added some letters so the code might read BCAD you might get muscles that was 3 times as strong as normal human muscles, but still only had normal human size.
Same with bone structure you would re-write the genetic codes making the infant Primarch develop bones, that where 3 times as strong as normal human bones, but didn´t seem like they where abnormally large compared to the size of the body.

Or would genetic tampering only get you so far and eventually you would have to incorporate carbon nanotube into the bones in order to get them to be strong enough to carry the weight?

As Paleophyte says, the whole "Looking human" thing is the problem... Which is what I suggested before. We have the evidence that you can make something larger than a man fly. (See previous page with Quetzalcoatlus.) So... building or having a creature of something similar is possible.

It won't look 'Human' though.

For something humanoid in shape to get airborn? Yeah, you're adding stuff into the bones, muscles, blood stream, lungs/diaphram etc to get them to fly.

Interestingly enough the blue aliens from Avatar would seem to be suggestive of being 'Made'. I haven't found the speil yet on how they 'evolved' their animal USB hook up thing. Tongue

From vague memory the Avatar aliens are a LOT tougher and stronger than humans with all sorts of exotic things going on in their biology. That they can both make and throw spears that can punch through light armor being the testimony.

So... instead of DNA in triplicate form (Like us, 3-nucleobase codon potentially coding for a maximum of 63 amino acids), you have DNA in a quadriplicate form ( 4-nucleobase codon potentially coding for a maximum of 255 amino acids).

Now you have oodles of genetic info to add in all the 'extra' stuff you need to building blocks to create and work into the system. (Yes, you could even possibly go penta-base or hexa-base, with corresponding increase in carried information. Smile )

Hope the ideas help. Big Grin

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03-09-2017, 07:44 PM (This post was last modified: 03-09-2017 07:47 PM by Peebothuhul.)
RE: What would it take to build a human caperble of flying with wings and look human?
(03-09-2017 07:30 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Let's start with a humanoid that is extremely light in weight, honeycomb like bones, very small & very few organs with green, photosynthetic skin. It doesn't eat. It doesn't have lungs. It's basically a human plant.

It can glide on thermals and for a short burst of time, it can flap it's wings to move quickly to avoid danger.

Meh, you don't just 'Honeycomb' the bones. You tweak them up with Buckminsterfullerene tubes to really increase their strength to wieght ratio. There are moluscs which have diamond plated tongues as another example of 'mineral-biological engineering.

There is already a gene mutation which doubles actual human bone density with out any seeming deliterious effects as another 'Real life' example of tweaking.

On a similar note, there's also a known gene mutation that doubles muscle density... again with seeming no deliterious effects. It's boosted muscle mass want, so there's an already existing option.

Then there's the mutation where excess red blood cells are produced (People need to give transfusions often, lest they 'rust')

Lots of weird genetic tweaks are already around..... Consider

The biggest hurdle is how everything actually attaches so that the wings are both functional... with out the being falling over etc.

Hope the continued ideas help. Smile

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03-09-2017, 09:55 PM
RE: What would it take to build a human caperble of flying with wings and look human?
(03-09-2017 02:58 PM)Erikjust Wrote:  Undoubtedly though i am curious since the Primarchs wasn´t born but rather created from scratch in a large tank of sorts.
You could essentially do whatever you wanted with the human genome, write the genetic code from scratch.

TL;DR: Stick with magic.

As Peebo has mentioned, you can do most anything if you can rewrite the genetic code at will. Bones made of fullerene and sinews made of kevlar make for a great flying critters.

What it can't do is violate the underlying laws of physics. A well-engineered flying hominid should be dainty and slender. Neither of these are adjectives we would apply to Sanguinius. We're looking at a fairly beefy humanoid with wings tacked on. Unless you're going to posit some implausible helium pockets or some very inadvisable hydrogen sacs that flesh will have a density of ~1 g/cm3 the same as anybody else. A 6' 4" human will tip the scales around 80 kg, give or take. Sanguinius is half again as tall and since mass goes up with the cube of size he'll be about 80 kg * 1.5 * 1.5 * 1.5 = 270 kg or near enough 600 lbs as doesn't matter.

In principle, a 600 lb hominid can glide, though all that armour will tend to produce more of a nasty ballistic arc. Soaring on thermals could keep it aloft indefinitely. For powered flight you need a minimum of 270 kg * 9.81 m/s^2 = 2650 Newtons of force. That's just to hover and assumes an unrealistically generous 100% efficiency.

That isn't all that much and is near the record for weight lifting. A mere mortal roid monster could hold Sanguinius aloft. Briefly. If he weren't pushing on something as insubstantial as air. Air has a density of just ~1.2 kg/m^3 so Sanguinius would need to accelerate some 240 m^3 at 9.81 m/s^2 every second just to hover.

The physics gets pretty gruesome from there but the simple answer comes from the amount of energy you'd need to effectively bench press 600 lbs every second and the amount of waste heat that will be produced. Yes, you could use genetic manipulation to store that energy in some fascinating form but that biochemical brew will have all the inherent stability of high test rocket fuel. You could easily vent the waste heat through the wings if you really wanted to run a lot of blood vessels through the single most vulnerable portion of the body. All other radiating surfaces have been covered in armour.

It's about now that you realize that what you've created is less of a flying hominid and more of a rapidly overheating man-shaped glide bomb.

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