What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
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30-11-2016, 11:54 AM
RE: What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
(30-11-2016 11:52 AM)yakherder Wrote:  Meh, this'll do.

[Image: hsop.gif]

So what do you think of the newest addition to the star wars series?
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30-11-2016, 11:55 AM
RE: What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
(30-11-2016 10:58 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  And these terrorists who committed suicide, what did they stand to gain from it? That these men succeeded in evading the CIA and the FBI, coordinating an attack simultaneously on the same day. And more importantly could fly a jet airplane, and intimidate all the people on four planes with pocket knives.

In 2009 the CIA recruited a Jordanian citizen in order to try and place him in Al Queda HQ, as close as possible to Bin Laden. He reported back shortly thereafter that he has gained access. CIA invited him to a meeting at the local CIA outpost/HQ. He agreed to report back in and get further instructions.

Too bad he was a double agent and deceived the CIA from the start. He then blew himself up at the meeting, killing 8 people.

Sounds unbelievable to you? You dont know what he possibly has to gain?

Well, here he is, let him explain it to you.




Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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30-11-2016, 11:57 AM
RE: What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
(30-11-2016 11:46 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  
(30-11-2016 11:23 AM)adey67 Wrote:  Plenty of suicide attacks since 9/11, pretty much the rest of your post can be summed up as the need for people to have the magnitude of an event equal to the magnitude of the cause, people find it frightening to deal with the fact that isn't always so.

Perhaps people also find it frightening to deal with the fact that sometimes, it is so?

Celestial you are a nice guy but I have to confess to finding you quite quixotic and intensely frustrating at times Frusty
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30-11-2016, 12:05 PM
RE: What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
(30-11-2016 11:54 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  
(30-11-2016 11:52 AM)yakherder Wrote:  Meh, this'll do.

[Image: hsop.gif]

So what do you think of the newest addition to the star wars series?

Kylo Ren is a pansie, and would have been better cast as a depressed hipster sitting in Starbucks sipping on a pumpkin spice latte than as a sith lord wannabe.

I'm looking forward to Rogue One, though, because Donnie Yen.

'Murican Canadian
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30-11-2016, 12:09 PM (This post was last modified: 30-11-2016 12:15 PM by Celestial_Wonder.)
RE: What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
(30-11-2016 11:55 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(30-11-2016 10:58 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  And these terrorists who committed suicide, what did they stand to gain from it? That these men succeeded in evading the CIA and the FBI, coordinating an attack simultaneously on the same day. And more importantly could fly a jet airplane, and intimidate all the people on four planes with pocket knives.

In 2009 the CIA recruited a Jordanian citizen in order to try and place him in Al Queda HQ, as close as possible to Bin Laden. He reported back shortly thereafter that he has gained access. CIA invited him to a meeting at the local CIA outpost/HQ. He agreed to report back in and get further instructions.

Too bad he was a double agent and deceived the CIA from the start. He then blew himself up at the meeting, killing 8 people.

Sounds unbelievable to you? You dont know what he possibly has to gain?

Well, here he is, let him explain it to you.




That man was an extremist even before the CIA got to him. Also that was just one man, the event I'm speaking of which was an orchestrated attack that took place in four different areas causing maximum collateral damage in terms of lives lost but almost no damage in terms of military setback. Where as this man attacked a military installation, particularly the intelligence agency of a foreign power, he was providing a military service to the taliban and the al-qaeda where as the attacks on the twin towers did not benefit them anyway strategically speaking.

Al-Balawi had a history of supporting violent Islamist causes.[6] He was tagged by the National Intelligence Organization of Turkey as having a relation with the Great Eastern Islamic Raiders' Front.[7] It is not clear whether this information was shared with other intelligence organizations. According to the SITE Intelligence Group, which monitors extremist websites, he was a well-known contributor to al-Hesbah, an online forum run by Islamist extremists.[6] He also ran his own Islamist blog.[8]
Al-Balawi was arrested by the Jordanian security service in late 2007 and was believed to have been transformed into a double agent loyal to the U.S. and to Jordan.[8][9] According to Western government officials, al-Balawi had been recruited by Jordan's General Intelligence Directorate and taken to Afghanistan. The Jordanian intelligence service is one of the CIA's closest allies in the Middle East.

(30-11-2016 11:57 AM)adey67 Wrote:  Celestial you are a nice guy but I have to confess to finding you quite quixotic and intensely frustrating at times Frusty

I share your frustration and hold the same view as you do. Tongue

(30-11-2016 12:05 PM)yakherder Wrote:  Kylo Ren is a pansie, and would have been better cast as a depressed hipster sitting in Starbucks sipping on a pumpkin spice latte than as a sith lord wannabe.

I'm looking forward to Rogue One, though, because Donnie Yen.

I have no hope for Rogue One, the previous movie just kind of confirmed to me that they're killing the franchise, not any real new developments in the story and basically just reusing only plot premises.

Honestly they would have been better off making a eight season long tv series out of the new Star Wars. Because the new movie was so RUSHED in terms of story line.
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30-11-2016, 12:11 PM
RE: What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
(30-11-2016 11:15 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  
(30-11-2016 10:42 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  does not equal (at all)


(emphasis mine)

If you were trying to compare us here with theists, who are demonstrably irrational to believe in things they have no proof for,
then i am suggesting you overthink your statement/position/equivocation.


There is only one certain difference between a theist and an atheist Deesse, and that is their belief in a god. Being a theist does not necessarily make one rational and obviously being an atheist doesn't necessarily make one irrational. For in your terms it is either I or you who is being irrational in the belief of a conspiracy.

While I prefer to think that you are being just as rational as I am on the topic. I really don't like calling people irrational.

You didnt get the point. I wasnt pointing out being rational vs irrational. I was pointing out your equivocation between

1) convincing somebody that his belief is wrong
and
2) convincing somebody that your belief is true

If you think its the same thing to convince theists that their belief is wrong and to convince atheists on TTA that your proposition is correct, then you are horribly wrong. In fact if you do believe that all you need to convince us of your proposition is to make us doubt our beliefs (like making christians doubt their belief), then you dont understand that it is irrelevant what anyone here believes about 9/11 and its background. If what we believe is wrong, this does not give a jota of credibility to your proposition.

I am writing this, because you seemed to mean exactly this when you posted:
Celestial_Wonder Wrote:Indeed I've spent the entire thread asking what it would take for all of you to believe, and I do not think I am capable of providing you with what you are seeking. Everyone has said evidence, yet the evidence I've presented before (not here) did nothing. It was a futile effort on my part. So if it is evidence that will convince you and indeed people have presented evidence that can not convince you.

There is nothing I can do, just like there is nothing I can do to convince theists that their god doesn't exist. I have to come to terms with conspiracies now just as I had to with religion, which is, it is neither in my place or in my capacity to try and convince others using evidence, because the evidence is simply ignored.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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30-11-2016, 12:14 PM
RE: What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
(30-11-2016 12:09 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  
(30-11-2016 11:55 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  In 2009 the CIA recruited a Jordanian citizen in order to try and place him in Al Queda HQ, as close as possible to Bin Laden. He reported back shortly thereafter that he has gained access. CIA invited him to a meeting at the local CIA outpost/HQ. He agreed to report back in and get further instructions.

Too bad he was a double agent and deceived the CIA from the start. He then blew himself up at the meeting, killing 8 people.

Sounds unbelievable to you? You dont know what he possibly has to gain?

Well, here he is, let him explain it to you.




That man was an extremist even before the CIA got to him.

Al-Balawi had a history of supporting violent Islamist causes.[6] He was tagged by the National Intelligence Organization of Turkey as having a relation with the Great Eastern Islamic Raiders' Front.[7] It is not clear whether this information was shared with other intelligence organizations. According to the SITE Intelligence Group, which monitors extremist websites, he was a well-known contributor to al-Hesbah, an online forum run by Islamist extremists.[6] He also ran his own Islamist blog.[8]
Al-Balawi was arrested by the Jordanian security service in late 2007 and was believed to have been transformed into a double agent loyal to the U.S. and to Jordan.[8][9] According to Western government officials, al-Balawi had been recruited by Jordan's General Intelligence Directorate and taken to Afghanistan. The Jordanian intelligence service is one of the CIA's closest allies in the Middle East.

(30-11-2016 11:57 AM)adey67 Wrote:  Celestial you are a nice guy but I have to confess to finding you quite quixotic and intensely frustrating at times Frusty

I share your frustration and hold the same view as you do. Tongue

Red herring.

I posted this in reply to your questioning what a terrorist think he gains by blowing himself up, or flying himslef with an airliner into a skyscraper.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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30-11-2016, 12:17 PM
RE: What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
(30-11-2016 11:40 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  
(30-11-2016 11:06 AM)Dark Wanderer Wrote:  Bullshit. Dodge much? You pretend like threads have some rigid set of rules, being confined to a certain topic, to avoid actually defending your bullshit. If someone made a thread titled "Celestial_Wonder: Please prove a conspiracy" would you do it then? No, you'd find some other way to dodge it.

You obviously have no good evidence to prove a conspiracy, and know that you'll be proven wrong. Just because your success rate is 0% that doesn't automatically mean it will fail here as well. There are many factors to consider. Maybe you were trying to convince stupid people? Just looks like more bullshit dodging to me.

Kind of like how Heywood (I think it was him...) claimed he had hard evidence of god but wouldn't reveal it to us because we "weren't ready".

I don't think they were stupid people at all. If there is one stupid person in this thread its me, I can't think of a way to prove this to you. I've tried evidence before (not with you fellows in particular) and it didn't work. I don't know what I can say dark wanderer except that I'm sorry. I'm sorry I can't prove it to you, and I'm sorry I've lost the will to try.

If they're not stupid then why didn't they believe you? You seem to think that you have good evidence. What other conclusion would one reach?

You can't prove it to me? You haven't even tried. I don't care what you tried to prove to other people. Prove it on this forum or quit whining about it.
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30-11-2016, 12:19 PM (This post was last modified: 30-11-2016 12:23 PM by skyking.)
RE: What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
(30-11-2016 10:58 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  
(30-11-2016 10:26 AM)adey67 Wrote:  Its only the subject of controversy amongst those who for whatever reason are emotionally invested in the conspiracy. There are a plethora of online articles which explain why people believe conspiracy theories all basically boil down to the fact that these theories forfil a psychological or emotional need, or relate to paradolia
There are no major holes in the official accounts, a group of terrorists got lucky and flew three planes into three buildings causing two to collapse and the collateral damage caused building seven to fall sometime later. What's more everyone saw it happen . Its all simple stuff really.

And these terrorists who committed suicide, what did they stand to gain from it?
They created widespread terror in the US and abroad, on behalf of their cause
That these men succeeded in evading the CIA and the FBI, coordinating an attack simultaneously on the same day.
And more importantly could fly a jet airplane
They took flight training in several schools. Common undisputed knowledge.
, and intimidate all the people on four planes with pocket knives.
they had tested the security and knew what they could get onboard. They had trained in using the box cutters to injure and kill, and nobody but the few on flight 93 stood up to them. It will never work again.

All the while at the same time Norad just so happened to be having a 'training exercise' for something very similar to what was to occur? why is this relevant? The military trains all the time, they must to justify the huge cost.

Further more they decided to attack the World Trade Centers instead of I don't know attacking military installations?
the military does not scare like the public. Not even close. They inflicted massive terror on symbols of US prosperity in the biggest most prosperous city. it was not the first time they tried to blow up or burn those buildings you know that right?
Very susceptible military installations with low security and billions of dollars of equipment and vehicles just... sitting there... in the open... nobody really guarding them. The same plane crashed into a military facility would have A) damaged far less than you think. The equipment is dispersed by nature.
B) not intimidated the public nearly as much.


But if you attacked a military installation that wouldn't have caused as much of a public outcry as it does with attacking innocents.
not even a close thing. When you kill in the offices and bedrooms, you create terror. Attacking a military target is expected.
Although attacking military installations would most certainly help you in the long run because it denies your enemy of that firepower.
please think critically. one base or another does not matter. They are not waging actual war here on our soil, but in the minds of the public.

When the Japanese attacked the United States in WW2, they didn't attack the golden gate bridge, they went after the United States Navy particularly their Air Craft Carriers which they believed were in Pearl Harbor.
that was a start of a real war, no shit sherlock.

Terrorism for public outcry, subterfuge and surprise attacks for actual effect on your enemies fighting capabilities.

Air supremacy largely determines the outcome of wars these days, so why not go after the air bases?
Once again, use your brain. a few F-16s are but a drop in the bucket. how many would you get with a jetliner? 10? Take a look at a base. There have been 4500 F-16's delivered worldwide. A couple of dozen is nothing.
A really good pilot might take out a dozen or more. hitting a building on the fly is a relative piece of cake. I happen to be a pilot, and hitting things on the ground can be a PITA Smile
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30-11-2016, 12:28 PM
RE: What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
(30-11-2016 12:14 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(30-11-2016 12:09 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  That man was an extremist even before the CIA got to him.

Al-Balawi had a history of supporting violent Islamist causes.[6] He was tagged by the National Intelligence Organization of Turkey as having a relation with the Great Eastern Islamic Raiders' Front.[7] It is not clear whether this information was shared with other intelligence organizations. According to the SITE Intelligence Group, which monitors extremist websites, he was a well-known contributor to al-Hesbah, an online forum run by Islamist extremists.[6] He also ran his own Islamist blog.[8]
Al-Balawi was arrested by the Jordanian security service in late 2007 and was believed to have been transformed into a double agent loyal to the U.S. and to Jordan.[8][9] According to Western government officials, al-Balawi had been recruited by Jordan's General Intelligence Directorate and taken to Afghanistan. The Jordanian intelligence service is one of the CIA's closest allies in the Middle East.


I share your frustration and hold the same view as you do. Tongue

Red herring.

I posted this in reply to your questioning what a terrorist think he gains by blowing himself up, or flying himslef with an airliner into a skyscraper.

Easy isn't it? Seventy something virgins and a penthouse apartment in Allah's kingdom all expenses paid. This is why I find CWs responses so flawed as to be almost childish he seems to see patterns everywhere even where there are none.
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