What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
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27-11-2016, 09:31 AM
RE: What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
I too am fascinated by what the catalyst can be, either individually or collectively, to break the structure of a persons belief system and to make them question what they once deemed 'truth'

I know what mine was. It was the film 'Zeitgeist', 8-9 years ago.

I too used to attempt to 'wake people up' with facebook posts I now look back and cringe at. You see, I was frequenting conspiracy websites and forums and I was having all of my beliefs reenforced by likeminded people who shared the same beliefs. I was having my biases validated.

Then I came here. A place where rationality and evidence are demanded if one is going to ask people to believe them.

Ask yourself celestial, why do you want others to believe you? What would you have to gain? What woud change?

I feel so much, and yet I feel nothing.
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27-11-2016, 09:42 AM
RE: What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
So-called conspiracy theorists are invariably paranoid, are delusional, and have very little sense of the real world around them. Or as we say Downunder, they're fucked in the head.

Illuminati, The New World Order & Paranoid Conspiracy Theorists (PCTs).

Weeping

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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27-11-2016, 09:57 AM
What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
By seeing a defined meaning of conspiracy theory and gathered information about the case.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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27-11-2016, 10:03 AM
RE: What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
Evidence.

The trouble with conspiracy nuts is that they think that all they have to do is say "the official explanation makes no sense" and that absolves them from producing evidence to support their "version."

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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27-11-2016, 10:37 AM (This post was last modified: 27-11-2016 10:44 AM by Velvet.)
RE: What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
(27-11-2016 08:02 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  Lots of people there not in their right mind. In fact the people who are convinced that Al-Qaeda was responsible are actually in the minority.
[Image: 911worldopinionpoll_Sep2008_pie.png]

That`s a really bad job at persuading anyone. Celestial, i'm sorry but ''what the majority of people think'' couldn`t mean any less as evidence for something.

You also counted people who said ''I don't know'', IMO only the maximum of 29% people would be ''not in the right mind'' according to this data if you meant to criticize TheBeardedDude on his comment.

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27-11-2016, 10:52 AM
RE: What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
Well, after a dodgy start which got better you now sadly appear to have dissolved again into a world of woo, I'm reluctant to remove a positive rep point for you because you are a gentle person and I like gentle kind people but I am disappointed. I only hope you can pull yourself back to the light of reality again.
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27-11-2016, 10:57 AM (This post was last modified: 27-11-2016 11:17 AM by Celestial_Wonder.)
RE: What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
(27-11-2016 07:22 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  You know how incredibly silly this sounds to me (and others?). You know that according to confirmation bias, once you are looking hard enough for conspiracies, you will *find* some?

You don't have to look very hard to find a conspiracy, but you do have to look. And I wasn't always looking, in fact I was very reluctant to even start.

Quote:If your *hobby* is to investigate conspiracies, then your main focus shouldnt be to convince others of what you have found. You should constantly try to disprove your own theory to yourself, before you go to others. Reading your post, and i may be wrong here, your main focus does not seem to find out for yourself whats going on, but to *sell* it to others. Otherwise you wouldnt be so frustrated about other people not buying your stories, but you would rather be wrestling with yourself.
Just a wild guess Smile

I don't consider it my hobby so much as my duty to humanity. I have usually taken in both sides into consideration, some of the smaller ones not so much, but the fact of the matter is that I one time had to try and prove and disprove these theories already.

There are quite a few atheists who feel that religion is a problem in our world and feel the need to try and deconvert the religious, I am (or at least I was) the same way with conspiracies, to me it isn't religion that is the problem in the world but the governments.

But yes I have already proved and disproved these theories to myself, there's a reason why I don't believe pearl harbor was a false flag. I mean for starters Japan doesn't even deny it. And then there's the Japanese submarine fellow who was the first person captured during the war.

Quote:Let me ask you this: Are you assuming there is a conspiracy (pick any, doesnt matter which) and then start to look for evidence, as in looking for confirmation? Or are you looking for evidence to the contrary (too)?

For smaller conspiracies I try my best to find opposing evidence, buuut, there's not as much concern in fighting the smaller conspiracies as there is with the bigger ones.


Quote:Well, what kind of evidence did you usually bring to the table then? I could take a wild guess here, but dont wanna insult you, so please explain first.

Maybe your evidence didnt match the standards of the people you tried to convince? Maybe their standard was too high? Maybe your evidence was too weak? Consider this: if you have presented your evidence and theories to so many (different?) people, and it never works, what do you think is the reason if you are looking for the most simple answer with the least assumptions?

The most likely reason? Submission to authority, and I don't know why, politicians are known to be compulsive liars, yet somehow people still believe and trust the government. Weird how that works out, power of authority and all.

As for the type of evidence? I brought up the best kind of evidence, pure unadulterated science. And it missed them all by a mile.

Quote:Maybe the problem is the quality of your evidence and not the quantity?

I usually try to go for both.

Quote:Too bad, its the only answer for most people here in the long run. I recommend you consider leaving TTA if you are serious and think you can convince anyone here without evidence that matches their standard. At the end you cant force people to believe something, you know. So spare you the frustration if you think so, and better leave.

My good Deesse, that is just it, I don't think they'd be convinced even if their standards were meant. And yes I can't force anyone to believe anything, that's the whole purpose of the thread.

Quote:Asking rational thinking people on how to convince irrational minds? Why dont you ask irrational people themselves?

I don't really know any creationists.


Quote:Last but not least:
Why being so obsessed with convincing other people of what you believe? Why do you have to make people believe your conspiracie theories? Is there a personal need/desire to be satisfied? I am asking, not insinuating.

Already answered in Bold.

(27-11-2016 07:56 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  What kind of *concept*?
What makes you so fascinated with them? What makes you so desperate to believe them? Im not baffled by conspiracies, i am usually baffled by the level of ignorance lack of evidence with which they are presented as well as the lack of qualification of the presenters.[/quote'

lack of qualification, a subset of authority. Who is qualified and who is not, decided by the authority.

Quote:Well, you just have fueled one of my suspicions. "Formulating evidence" as in "making shit up" or as in "my (unqualified) opinion about some facts/factoids"? Sorry for being so direct, but please explain more in detail.

Formulate

to express in precise form; state definitely or systematically:

[quote]"...supply at least a reasonable doubt"? No, sorry, your job is not to make people doubt what they think they already know is ture, its to provide good reasons for why to believe what you present.

I did not become an atheist overnight, rather it was a process that took about a year because someone planted a reasonable doubt in me.

Quote:And by not buying this you feel bigger and more powerful? It has already been explained that many conspiracy theorists are engaged in this activity exactly for these reasons. Thats why i was asking for your needs/desires.

I have no need or desire to believe in conspiracies, truth be told, I rather wish I didn't. It becomes the question, how am I going to fix this?

by not buying into the Illuminati conspiracy I feel that the government is far less competent than we perceive them to be.

Quote:Emphaisis mine, and i bet you expected this. How.do.you.know? Why do you believe this? This is a meta conspiracy theory, a conspiracy theory about conspiracies. Makes your claims not more believeable in the least. Dodgy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_lapidem

Its actually a fallacy because this method has been used so much, and many a person (IE: thebeardeddude 'no person in their right mind') are guilty of it on here.

I'm not sure I would call it a meta conspiracy, or even a conspiracy really. Its more or less psychology.

Quote:WTF? You are comparing yourself to atheists/sceptics? You are comparing the *official version* of events with religion? Are you trying to jus tproclaim yourself to be "right" and everything else to be "religion"? Thats really, really desperate. You have nothing in common with sceptics who happen to be atheists around here, nothing! Are you actually aware of this? Actually you are one of the denominations in yoour example, and -funny enough, because it matches religion so well- the ones you despise most are the ones with a mindset closest to yours (religion).

Hit a nerve somewhere there, I apologize for that.

Quote:If your theory and methodology has no own merit, it doesnt make you look particularly clever by just trying to associate yourself by proclamation with a group that has both. Please remember: Just because you dont believe in the *official* version of events, doesnt make your theores valid. You know what would make them valid, and what would make a sceptic/atheist acceptit, right? It begins with "E".

Tried that route Deesse, tried it so many times, not trying it again, at least not alone. I am certainly missing something in my approach.

Quote:Overwhelming? Then it shouldnt be so hard for you to convince us, right? If not, then either a whole forum of sceptics is wrong.....or just a single person. What is your bet?

Were it so easy. What are fossils to creationists?


Quote:Any why bold the word "big". I dont care if its a big or a big conspiracy. What i care about starts with an "E".

I didn't not bold the word big, I capitalized it, and I did so for emphasis on... well I mean there's more than two but... just two that I know of that aren't already on the cutting board.
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27-11-2016, 11:07 AM
RE: What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
If you want any meaningful discussion, then you have to at least do the following:

Pick conspiracy theory.
The discussion will get to confusing without a topic to focus on. It will also split off into tangents.

Define your words or at least accept the recognized definitions.
You have equated conspiracies and conspiracy theories in the past. They are different animals and you have to accept that.

Do not assume we (or others) are not honest and not rational.
You pointed out that creationists will not accept evidence. We are not creationists.
Rational people will accept the truth if presented with facts and evidence.


Popular conspiracy theories include:

The Moon Landing was a Hoax
The JFK Assassination
The US Government has Proof of Extraterrestrials
9/11 was an Inside Job

~ I couldn't think of a fifth option and I wiki'd it. Holy Shit.
tons and tons and tons

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27-11-2016, 11:16 AM
RE: What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
(27-11-2016 10:03 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  Evidence.

The trouble with conspiracy nuts is that they think that all they have to do is say "the official explanation makes no sense" and that absolves them from producing evidence to support their "version."

But the official versions do make sense, I just think the conspiracies theories make more sense sometimes depending on the theory.

Quote:That`s a really bad job at persuading anyone. Celestial, i'm sorry but ''what the majority of people think'' couldn`t mean any less as evidence for something.

You also counted people who said ''I don't know'', IMO only the maximum of 29% people would be ''not in the right mind'' according to this data if you meant to criticize TheBeardedDude on his comment.

I just don't like calling people irrational, its why in the op I put 'hypothetically'. Truth be told you wouldn't really be irrational if you believed Al Qaeda was responsible, you would just have come up with things differently than I did.

(27-11-2016 10:52 AM)adey67 Wrote:  Well, after a dodgy start which got better you now sadly appear to have dissolved again into a world of woo, I'm reluctant to remove a positive rep point for you because you are a gentle person and I like gentle kind people but I am disappointed. I only hope you can pull yourself back to the light of reality again.

I appreciate the gesture.

I mainly made this thread because Syz reminded me of all my past failures.

(27-11-2016 11:07 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  If you want any meaningful discussion, then you have to at least do the following:

Pick conspiracy theory.
The discussion will get to confusing without a topic to focus on. It will also split off into tangents.

Define your words or at least accept the recognized definitions.
You have equated conspiracies and conspiracy theories in the past. They are different animals and you have to accept that.

Do not assume we (or others) are not honest and not rational.
You pointed out that creationists will not accept evidence. We are not creationists.
Rational people will accept the truth if presented with facts and evidence.


Popular conspiracy theories include:

The Moon Landing was a Hoax
The JFK Assassination
The US Government has Proof of Extraterrestrials
9/11 was an Inside Job

~ I couldn't think of a fifth option and I wiki'd it. Holy Shit.
tons and tons and tons

Thanks Fatbaldhobbit, but unless I can find a new approach my days of debating conspiracies are long over. Doesn't mean I won't try and sway people from time to time though.

Also you missed my favorite conspiracy.

The Gunpowder Plot

Remember remember, the fifth of november...
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27-11-2016, 11:25 AM
RE: What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
(27-11-2016 11:16 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  
(27-11-2016 10:03 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  Evidence.

The trouble with conspiracy nuts is that they think that all they have to do is say "the official explanation makes no sense" and that absolves them from producing evidence to support their "version."

But the official versions do make sense, I just think the conspiracies theories make more sense sometimes depending on the theory.

Quote:That`s a really bad job at persuading anyone. Celestial, i'm sorry but ''what the majority of people think'' couldn`t mean any less as evidence for something.

You also counted people who said ''I don't know'', IMO only the maximum of 29% people would be ''not in the right mind'' according to this data if you meant to criticize TheBeardedDude on his comment.

I just don't like calling people irrational, its why in the op I put 'hypothetically'. Truth be told you wouldn't really be irrational if you believed Al Qaeda was responsible, you would just have come up with things differently than I did.

(27-11-2016 10:52 AM)adey67 Wrote:  Well, after a dodgy start which got better you now sadly appear to have dissolved again into a world of woo, I'm reluctant to remove a positive rep point for you because you are a gentle person and I like gentle kind people but I am disappointed. I only hope you can pull yourself back to the light of reality again.

I appreciate the gesture.

I mainly made this thread because Syz reminded me of all my past failures.

(27-11-2016 11:07 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  If you want any meaningful discussion, then you have to at least do the following:

Pick conspiracy theory.
The discussion will get to confusing without a topic to focus on. It will also split off into tangents.

Define your words or at least accept the recognized definitions.
You have equated conspiracies and conspiracy theories in the past. They are different animals and you have to accept that.

Do not assume we (or others) are not honest and not rational.
You pointed out that creationists will not accept evidence. We are not creationists.
Rational people will accept the truth if presented with facts and evidence.


Popular conspiracy theories include:

The Moon Landing was a Hoax
The JFK Assassination
The US Government has Proof of Extraterrestrials
9/11 was an Inside Job

~ I couldn't think of a fifth option and I wiki'd it. Holy Shit.
tons and tons and tons

Thanks Fatbaldhobbit, but unless I can find a new approach my days of debating conspiracies are long over. Doesn't mean I won't try and sway people from time to time though.

Also you missed my favorite conspiracy.

The Gunpowder Plot

Remember remember, the fifth of november...

Ya but that was provable big fat barrels of gunpowder and fleeing suspects.
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