What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
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29-11-2016, 02:40 AM
RE: What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
(29-11-2016 02:23 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(29-11-2016 01:59 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  What about a Russian news source instead of an American news source? Having said that, I would say Russia Today, which has been claimed by the western governments to be a propaganda network buuut... aren't all news networks some form of propaganda?

While the Western governments accuse it of not being impartial, would it not be not impartial to not give it the same credibility that you might say, give CNN? or the BBC. Because certainly those two networks have never engaged in propaganda.

In essence, the news is always going to be about propaganda, the only real thing that matters is if the propaganda was true or not.

Christ man, it's not just if it's a news source that dictates whether I accept it as truth or not. Just that it lends it more credibility that some random guy posting on a forum. Why do you think there are court cases after e.g. a crime ring is exposed by a newspaper? It's not because lawyers and judges do shit for fun. It's because due process is a fuck-off difficult (and therefore expensive) affair and if you're gonna jail people you make damn sure that due process has been observed and that according to the current legal standards they have been properly convicted. And even then cockups happen. But expecting me to give the same credence I give to the official report (where due process has taken place) or a news report (where some grounds for credence exist based on the paper's reputation and the journalists and sources involved) and <insert conspiracy theory here> is a load of horseshit.

This is not difficult.

And I was asking if you'd give the same credibility to a russian news source as you would an american one.
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29-11-2016, 02:57 AM
RE: What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
(29-11-2016 02:34 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(28-11-2016 11:11 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  Had the Germans won the war in World War II, we would likely have never heard tale of the Holocaust...

Are you serious? seriously We would have, definitely!
Thats the part about Sam Harris´ conversation (and NDT) you didnt understand: PEOPLE TALK. If you have hundreds, and in the case of holocaust TENS OF THOUSANDS of people involved, a few WILL talk. And there will be people listening...and asking...and inquiring.

There is a much simpler reason, and the fact that you didnt grasp it speaks volumes about your bias towards looking for conspiracies where there is not even a REASON to conspire in the first place.

I cant believe that i have to tell this but:
If Germany won the war, WE WOULD PROUDLY HAVE TOLD THE WHOLE FUCKING WORLD THAT WE EXTERMINATED THE FUCKING JEWISH PLAGUE LIKE ADOLF PROMISED AND ADVERTISED ALL THROUGH THE 30s!

Thats what this whole fucking first phase of german world domination was all about: Lebensraum im Osten, extermination of unworthy life like jews etc. and enslaving of "lower" races. THAT WAS THE FUCKING PLAN, AND IT WAS PUBLICLY ANNOUNCED, EVERY FUCKING DAY, LITERALLY.

Look at the Nürnberg trials and all the documents that were presented, look at the fucking Wannsee protocol.
THE FUCKING NAZIS WROTE DOWN HOW THEY DID THE HOLOCAUST, THEY FUCKING WROTE PROTOCOLS

It was painstakingly documented how many people were transported with train from x to y. Even the allied prosecutors were baffled how thoroughly this was documented. Even if the Nazis would try to erase all evidence of this, the paper shredder itself (to shred all the papers) would have to be so fucking huge and expensive that this in return would be evidence in itself that something was to be hidden. Facepalm

It was filmed! The camp commanders had their fucking wives and kids living in the fucking camps in private living areas. Does that sound like a fucking conspiracy? I dont fucking think so.

Noone wanted to keep the holocaust secret, ever. All that happened after May 1945 is a bunch of spineless cowards trying to deny responsibilty for what they have done and supported.

Where did you get your information from?

Because the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum disagrees with you.
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29-11-2016, 03:06 AM
RE: What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
(29-11-2016 02:57 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  Where did you get your information from?

Because the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum disagrees with you.

No they don't. The article is a good one, but it doesn't say what you seem to think it says.

The Germans practiced deception propaganda about the extermination campaign in order to make it easier to "relocate" the Jews with less resistance and keeping them from seeing what was really going in the ghettos to which they were often initially shipped. Harder to round up people if they are universally aware and universally resisting-- so you muddy the waters with propaganda to make your job easier. The Germans are masters of efficiency and expediency.

His assertion is that once they won the war, they would have proudly asserted their victory and the accomplishment of what Hitler had first proposed back in the 1930s, and which had been stated by German officials at numerous times.

What was done to expedite the process while the war and the exterminations were both still ongoing does not impact this fact of how the Nazis would have seen both victories as a justification of their beliefs, which they would have proudly announced.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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29-11-2016, 03:08 AM (This post was last modified: 29-11-2016 03:12 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
@Deesse23

Nazis wanted to keep Endlosung secret, even if only to make cooperation of would be victims easier. Otherwise why bother with euphemisms like "special treatment"?* Himmler himself said that Shoah will be glorious chapter unspoken of [in first Posen speech].


I'm also not sure if Holocaust would be proudly talked about in event of German victory but there is no way for checking this.


*Making it easier for killers could be a reason too. Dehumanization wasn't done just to humiliate the victims.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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29-11-2016, 03:13 AM
RE: What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
(29-11-2016 02:40 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  And I was asking if you'd give the same credibility to a russian news source as you would an american one.

Ca depend. And you're still no closer. Even if I was horribly biased, you're still nowhere with any "proof" of your conspiracy theory. No wonder no one ever takes you seriously, if this is the kind of "but what if you're wrong?" argument you think is convincing.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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29-11-2016, 03:13 AM
RE: What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
(29-11-2016 03:08 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  @Deesse23

Nazis wanted to keep Endlosung secret. Otherwise why bother with euphemisms like "special treatment"?* Himmler himself said that Shoah will be glorious chapter unspoken of [in first Posen speech].

*Making it easier for killers could be a reason too. Dehumanization wasn't done just to humiliate the victims.

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@Szuchow - I'm sure you noted that much of the German propaganda effort was aimed at keeping the public support high for the war, something with which (as the article notes) they had so much difficulty that they had to literally lock the theater doors in order to get people to watch the propaganda film before the movie. If you use more-palatable euphemisms until the Shoah is a fait accompli, you make your job easier on many levels.

ETA: The Nazi leadership were psychopathic bastards... but they were clever ones. Undecided

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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29-11-2016, 03:16 AM (This post was last modified: 29-11-2016 03:24 AM by Celestial_Wonder.)
RE: What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
(29-11-2016 03:06 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(29-11-2016 02:57 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  Where did you get your information from?

Because the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum disagrees with you.

No they don't. The article is a good one, but it doesn't say what you seem to think it says.

The Germans practiced deception propaganda about the extermination campaign in order to make it easier to "relocate" the Jews with less resistance and keeping them from seeing what was really going in the ghettos to which they were often initially shipped. Harder to round up people if they are universally aware and universally resisting-- so you muddy the waters with propaganda to make your job easier. The Germans are masters of efficiency and expediency.

His assertion is that once they won the war, they would have proudly asserted their victory and the accomplishment of what Hitler had first proposed back in the 1930s, and which had been stated by German officials at numerous times.

What was done to expedite the process while the war and the exterminations were both still ongoing does not impact this fact of how the Nazis would have seen both victories as a justification of their beliefs, which they would have proudly announced.

"The Nazi leadership aimed to deceive the German population, the victims, and the outside world regarding their genocidal policy toward Jews."

First part of the second paragraph in 'The Propaganda of Deception.' It implies a continuous deception, even after the war. Which makes sense especially as the Germans were using the Holodomor as a propaganda weapon against the Soviets. The genocide would not have been very well received by other nations, indeed, it has not been well received at all.

(29-11-2016 03:13 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(29-11-2016 02:40 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  And I was asking if you'd give the same credibility to a russian news source as you would an american one.

Ca depend. And you're still no closer. Even if I was horribly biased, you're still nowhere with any "proof" of your conspiracy theory. No wonder no one ever takes you seriously, if this is the kind of "but what if you're wrong?" argument you think is convincing.

So a news source, experts, and proof. What qualifies as proof for you?
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29-11-2016, 03:22 AM
RE: What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
(29-11-2016 03:16 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  
(29-11-2016 03:06 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  No they don't. The article is a good one, but it doesn't say what you seem to think it says.

The Germans practiced deception propaganda about the extermination campaign in order to make it easier to "relocate" the Jews with less resistance and keeping them from seeing what was really going in the ghettos to which they were often initially shipped. Harder to round up people if they are universally aware and universally resisting-- so you muddy the waters with propaganda to make your job easier. The Germans are masters of efficiency and expediency.

His assertion is that once they won the war, they would have proudly asserted their victory and the accomplishment of what Hitler had first proposed back in the 1930s, and which had been stated by German officials at numerous times.

What was done to expedite the process while the war and the exterminations were both still ongoing does not impact this fact of how the Nazis would have seen both victories as a justification of their beliefs, which they would have proudly announced.

"The Nazi leadership aimed to deceive the German population, the victims, and the outside world regarding their genocidal policy toward Jews."

First part of the second paragraph in 'The Propaganda of Deception.' It implies a continuous deception, even after the war. Which makes sense especially as the Germans were using the Holodomor as a propaganda weapon against the Soviets. The genocide would not have been very well received by other nations, indeed, it has not been well received at all.

Yes, dear. Now go on to read the rest of the article, in which it explains all the various forms of manipulation the Germans practiced via propaganda, and why they used it. They worked under one of the greatest (or at least most infamous) propaganda masters of history.

How to get the public to support your war:
*Downplay your own publicly unpalatable actions.
*Play up the actions of The Enemy and exaggerate their evil nature.
*Come up with palatable alternate names for what you're doing.

My personal favorite example of such is the "Healthy Trees Initiative" (three great words!) for what was actually a bill pushed by the logging industry to re-allow what was effectively clearcutting. And it passed, too! But that was in the USA under the Bush Junior administration.

When you have a task that is not yet accomplished, it is often useful to lie and downplay both its nature and its effects, until you've done it. Then you can spin your accomplishment any way you want. If you think Goebbels was any different in this regard, you're insane.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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29-11-2016, 03:23 AM (This post was last modified: 29-11-2016 03:32 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
(29-11-2016 03:13 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(29-11-2016 03:08 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  @Deesse23

Nazis wanted to keep Endlosung secret. Otherwise why bother with euphemisms like "special treatment"?* Himmler himself said that Shoah will be glorious chapter unspoken of [in first Posen speech].

*Making it easier for killers could be a reason too. Dehumanization wasn't done just to humiliate the victims.

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@Szuchow - I'm sure you noted that much of the German propaganda effort was aimed at keeping the public support high for the war, something with which (as the article notes) they had so much difficulty that they had to literally lock the theater doors in order to get people to watch the propaganda film before the movie. If you use more-palatable euphemisms until the Shoah is a fait accompli, you make your job easier on many levels.

I already edited my post.

Also keeping the (tacit?) support wasn't that hard up to certain point - economic incentives weren't bad and victories were coming one after another. See Gotz Aly "Hitler's Beneficiaries: Plunder, Racial War, and the Nazi Welfare State". Even during last days of war Hitler still had support [Ian Kershaw, "The End"] which given the state Reich was in baffles.

Edit: Cleverness of Nazi leadership could be easily called into question. Why kill Jews when they could work? Why commit atrocities in Russia when populace welcomes you as saviour? Ideology of course. I would say that Nazis could be considered clever where ideology they espoused didn't blind them.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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29-11-2016, 03:30 AM
RE: What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
(29-11-2016 03:16 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  So a news source, experts, and proof. What qualifies as proof for you?

If you haven't figured it out from my previous posts to you then I'm inclined to think you're trolling.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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