What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
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29-11-2016, 03:42 AM (This post was last modified: 29-11-2016 03:47 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
(29-11-2016 03:22 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(29-11-2016 03:16 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  "The Nazi leadership aimed to deceive the German population, the victims, and the outside world regarding their genocidal policy toward Jews."

First part of the second paragraph in 'The Propaganda of Deception.' It implies a continuous deception, even after the war. Which makes sense especially as the Germans were using the Holodomor as a propaganda weapon against the Soviets. The genocide would not have been very well received by other nations, indeed, it has not been well received at all.

Yes, dear. Now go on to read the rest of the article, in which it explains all the various forms of manipulation the Germans practiced via propaganda, and why they used it. They worked under one of the greatest (or at least most infamous) propaganda masters of history.


According to Peter Longerich author of Reich main propagandist biography Goebbels mastery of propaganda and it's effectivenes are overstated. Edit: Just like his importance. Goebbels allegedly didn't have his own power base and was dependant on Hitler in fending of attacks.

It's not easy to measure though. Also even if it looks silly from modern perspective it does not mean that it looked foolish then.

Quote: How to get the public to support your war:
*Downplay your own publicly unpalatable actions.
*Play up the actions of The Enemy and exaggerate their evil nature.
*Come up with palatable alternate names for what you're doing.


I would add dehumanize the enemy and set things to look like that you're one who is just defending.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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29-11-2016, 03:46 AM
RE: What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
(29-11-2016 03:22 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Yes, dear. Now go on to read the rest of the article, in which it explains all the various forms of manipulation the Germans practiced via propaganda, and why they used it. They worked under one of the greatest (or at least most infamous) propaganda masters of history.

How to get the public to support your war:
*Downplay your own publicly unpalatable actions.
*Play up the actions of The Enemy and exaggerate their evil nature.
*Come up with palatable alternate names for what you're doing.

My personal favorite example of such is the "Healthy Trees Initiative" (three great words!) for what was actually a bill pushed by the logging industry to re-allow what was effectively clearcutting. And it passed, too! But that was in the USA under the Bush Junior administration.

When you have a task that is not yet accomplished, it is often useful to lie and downplay both its nature and its effects, until you've done it. Then you can spin your accomplishment any way you want. If you think Goebbels was any different in this regard, you're insane.

I think Goebbels and the Nazi leadership knew how unsavory such a crime would be to international relations. Genocide is never well reciprocated on the international level.
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29-11-2016, 03:47 AM
RE: What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
(29-11-2016 03:42 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  According to Peter Longerich author of Reich main propagandist biography Goebbels mastery of propaganda and it's effectivenes are overstated.

Yeah, that's why I said "or at least most infamous" in parenthesis.

But whether or not it worked as well as or better than anyone else, his main goal was to manipulate his own (white/Aryan German) people into continuing to support the agenda of the Nazi Party, including the war. We're just looking at what propaganda was produced, without evaluating how actually-effective it was or whether disguising their actions meant they wouldn't have trumpeted them later, post-victory.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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29-11-2016, 03:51 AM
RE: What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
(29-11-2016 03:46 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  I think Goebbels and the Nazi leadership knew how unsavory such a crime would be to international relations. Genocide is never well reciprocated on the international level.

Somehow that would make a worse image of them than dropping bombs on Russia, England, etc., and killing millions of Allied soldiers? They weren't really all that concerned about their "international image" by 1943, man.

I think their international image was one of the last things on their minds on that point... at least it would have paled in comparison to their goal of trying to make "Average Joseph" into a supporter of the Reich's policies. The Germans were not as universally supportive of the Nazi Party as their propagandists (and ours) would often have you believe... they became moreso that way via the manipulation of their psychology via propaganda, however, which was the point.

Just like American politics: tell the yokels whatever they need to hear so they'll keep sending you their tax dollars and their sons to feed into your war machine.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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29-11-2016, 03:53 AM
RE: What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
(29-11-2016 03:47 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(29-11-2016 03:42 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  According to Peter Longerich author of Reich main propagandist biography Goebbels mastery of propaganda and it's effectivenes are overstated.

Yeah, that's why I said "or at least most infamous" in parenthesis.


I noticed.

Quote: But whether or not it worked as well as or better than anyone else, his main goal was to manipulate his own (white/Aryan German) people into continuing to support the agenda of the Nazi Party, including the war. We're just looking at what propaganda was produced, without evaluating how actually-effective it was or whether disguising their actions meant they wouldn't have trumpeted them later, post-victory.

Agreed.

Himmler speech about unwritten chapter makes me think that Shoah would be keep secret though. It was too extreme to be discussed in other way than by using vague terminology I think.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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29-11-2016, 04:02 AM
RE: What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
@Szuchow - Before I turn back in to try to overcome my insomnia and get some sleep (it's 4AM... I woke up at midnight after falling asleep "early" last night), I just want to say how much I enjoy having you to kick ideas back and forth with, and how much I admire your mental library of scholarly books on these subjects, such that I can count on you to pick apart any errors I may make or confirm ideas I had put together but could not back up with more than vague recollections of stuff I read 20 years ago. I'm really glad you're here. Smile

Okay, g'night everybody.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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29-11-2016, 04:16 AM
RE: What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
@RocketSurgeon

First - I too enjoy our discussions. One can't broaden one understanding if one ideas aren't talked about.

Second - my mental library isn't so impressive - you may have noted that I mention same books quite often. Not to mention the fact that without access to them I can bring only general themes.

Third - I won't say that I'm not well versed in Shoah literature and some aspects of Reich politics but the same can be said about you. And also your insight in other things (evolution for example) is much greater than mine. Not being confined to one discipline is something that educated people should strive for I feel and I think that you're doing good job with it.

Lastly - sadly my English is lacking and I'm yet to achieve flowing elegance of other posters. This being uncomfortable is minor issue, larger problem being inability to share the knowledge possesed. After all knowing something and being able to put it into words are different beasts alltoegether.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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29-11-2016, 05:29 AM
RE: What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
(29-11-2016 04:16 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  @RocketSurgeon

First - I too enjoy our discussions. One can't broaden one understanding if one ideas aren't talked about.

Second - my mental library isn't so impressive - you may have noted that I mention same books quite often. Not to mention the fact that without access to them I can bring only general themes.

Third - I won't say that I'm not well versed in Shoah literature and some aspects of Reich politics but the same can be said about you. And also your insight in other things (evolution for example) is much greater than mine. Not being confined to one discipline is something that educated people should strive for I feel and I think that you're doing good job with it.

Lastly - sadly my English is lacking and I'm yet to achieve flowing elegance of other posters. This being uncomfortable is minor issue, larger problem being inability to share the knowledge possesed. After all knowing something and being able to put it into words are different beasts alltoegether.

I'll wager that few posters could speak your native tongue as well as you speak and write English, don't sell yourself short my friend. Smile
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29-11-2016, 05:46 AM
RE: What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
(29-11-2016 05:29 AM)adey67 Wrote:  
(29-11-2016 04:16 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  @RocketSurgeon

First - I too enjoy our discussions. One can't broaden one understanding if one ideas aren't talked about.

Second - my mental library isn't so impressive - you may have noted that I mention same books quite often. Not to mention the fact that without access to them I can bring only general themes.

Third - I won't say that I'm not well versed in Shoah literature and some aspects of Reich politics but the same can be said about you. And also your insight in other things (evolution for example) is much greater than mine. Not being confined to one discipline is something that educated people should strive for I feel and I think that you're doing good job with it.

Lastly - sadly my English is lacking and I'm yet to achieve flowing elegance of other posters. This being uncomfortable is minor issue, larger problem being inability to share the knowledge possesed. After all knowing something and being able to put it into words are different beasts alltoegether.

I'll wager that few posters could speak your native tongue as well as you speak and write English,


Probably. Polish, though is harder than English and not exactly useful.

Quote: don't sell yourself short my friend. Smile

I just try not to fall in trap of hubris.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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29-11-2016, 06:50 AM
RE: What would it take to convince you of a conspiracy theory?
(29-11-2016 05:29 AM)adey67 Wrote:  
(29-11-2016 04:16 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  @RocketSurgeon

First - I too enjoy our discussions. One can't broaden one understanding if one ideas aren't talked about.

Second - my mental library isn't so impressive - you may have noted that I mention same books quite often. Not to mention the fact that without access to them I can bring only general themes.

Third - I won't say that I'm not well versed in Shoah literature and some aspects of Reich politics but the same can be said about you. And also your insight in other things (evolution for example) is much greater than mine. Not being confined to one discipline is something that educated people should strive for I feel and I think that you're doing good job with it.

Lastly - sadly my English is lacking and I'm yet to achieve flowing elegance of other posters. This being uncomfortable is minor issue, larger problem being inability to share the knowledge possesed. After all knowing something and being able to put it into words are different beasts alltoegether.

I'll wager that few posters could speak your native tongue as well as you speak and write English, don't sell yourself short my friend. Smile

Really, the only issue I've ever seen with Szuchow's English skill is that he makes the common Russian (and apparently Polish) grammar issue of forgetting that we add in extra articles (the, an, et cetera) to our language where theirs do not. Other than that, he's a better writer of English than 99% of Americans I've ever met.

That's really not that great of a compliment, now that I think about it... but it was meant to be one!

Anyway, in English, we say "I am going to the store."

In eastern Europe, they say, "I go to store." It's proper grammar in their language, but sounds strange in ours.

But put yourself into their shoes: just try to speak our language without adding in "extra" articles, as if you were speaking their language. "Is really difficult!"

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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