"What would it take?"
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19-08-2012, 10:29 AM
RE: "What would it take?"
I really like the concept that an all-knowing God would know how to convince me of his existence...that's what I really like about this place...different takes on the same subjects...gets me to look at things through new eyes.

As to whether or not I would worship a God that I KNEW existed, I suppose it would depend on what kind of a god he/she/it was. I might just like them a lot. I have friends I like a lot, but I don't feel a need to worship them. If worship is required...then I think all bets are off anyway.

The whole blind faith thing doesn't sit well with me. I just can't decide that I will have total faith in something/someone without a sound reason.

I'm not anti-social. I'm pro-solitude. Sleepy
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19-08-2012, 10:29 AM
RE: "What would it take?"
There's an important part of the formula that some of you are forgetting.

We don't have souls. Never have done, never will do.

So the appearance of a "god" would basically be the equivalent of a villain from Superman turning up. I mean, sure, compared to us he's powerful and can kill lots of people... but his power is over life and death, not what happens afterwards - because nothing happens afterwards.

If, on that day, I valued life... I'd acquiesce the same as any other hostage would.

If, on that day, I didn't value life... I'd tell him to go fuck himself. And I'd buy a megaphone to do so. And probably a plane trailing a banner that read "Hey, God... fuck you and everyone who looks like you!"
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19-08-2012, 10:48 AM (This post was last modified: 19-08-2012 01:24 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: "What would it take?"
(19-08-2012 10:23 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(19-08-2012 10:20 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  They'd have to start from scratch with me.

1. How did an "eternal" god get pissed off, ad stay pissed off, and become such a jerk, he'she decided the only thing that would be good enough was a human sacrifice, and why does all that NOT defile the concept of "eternal".
2. Explain why any "being", who made 600 sextillion stars, gives a shit about what goes on, on some backwater planet, in a boring star system, out on the arm of a very average galaxy.
3. Explain why he/she would be paying attention, or need "worship" from a bunch of very pathetic creatures,
4. Explain how why he/she is not busy with other multiverses, and cares about the likes of this one.

Since all of Christianity is built on known misinterpretations of known ancient myths and myth systems, I guess they could start all of human history over again, and this time NOT screw up the development process, and next time, be sure and keep it secret, so I wouldn't find out it was all a crock, cooked up by fairly stupid men.

In short, nothing would take me back, that I can imagine.

You're answering the question of "What would it take to believe in Yahweh?", to which my personal answer is "Nothing. While I can't disprove that there is a god, there's plenty of evidence against this specific god."

The questions you're posing aren't necessarily true about any god that a person could come up with.

If I can't have my Yahweh god, I'm not playing your stupid game. (pouting, going home).

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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19-08-2012, 11:00 AM
RE: "What would it take?"
What would it take for me to believe that an imaginary god created by bronze age goat herders exists ? It would take removing parts of my brain that I use for reasoning.

I can observe the existence in the smallest speck of dust. I can observe the sun. I can observe the Milky Way on a clear night and with a telescope, I can observe other galaxies.
I have yet to observe a god.

People throughout time have observed murders, rapes and atrocities of all manner and form.
In all of those things, I have yet to observe a god

I observe that people wrote and edited everything in the bible and did it rather poorly. It's a purely human manufactured storyline.
I observe no godly influence in that or any book that gets so many common facts wrong.

I don't believe a god exists or ever did. What would it take for you to believe that a 5 legged 3 horned half rabbit / half frog exists in my back yard ?

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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19-08-2012, 11:36 AM
RE: "What would it take?"
Perhaps I didn't phrase my thoughts very clearly, some people seem to have understood what I meant, while others seem to be answering based on the thread title. Both of which are great, because I wanted other peoples perspectives, so I really appreciate all of the responses.

To rephrase my question: "Even if you felt that someone had provided you proof of a god(s) existence, would you worship it?"

Starcrash Wrote:Unlike many atheists, I would happily worship a god who actually existed. Who cares if that god is moral or not? I only value secular morality over any god's alleged morality because of that god's nonexistence. If such a god existed and had ultimate control over my fate, I would value its happiness over that of society. In the meantime, I'll stick with morality that benefits society rather than an illusory deity.

This is more or less the sort of thing that I was wondering about, and I appreciate your honest answer Starcrash.

The problem with this stance that I have (not trying to make a personal attack), is; "Aren't we, as humans, the ultimate arbiter of what is or is not moral when it comes to actions committed by, or against other humans?" I mean, even if an ultimate being existed and created us, they or it wouldn't actually be us, and I feel that they shouldn't have a say in what is a moral or immoral action when it comes to us. We are the ones who are ultimately effected by the morals and behaviours of others, therefore our morality is more important that some deity, who apparently is only emotionally hurt by our actions, where as people, we can be physically effected by others actions. I think the potential for physical harm, in this case is more important than emotional harm to a deity. To paraphrase a Hitchens quote that I really like; "Why should we heap praises on a being, who, in creating us, was only doing what came to it naturally?"

Even if this being had ultimate control over our fate, I still think that if a hell existed, I would rather go there, having stood firm on the morals that I believe in, rather than kowtowing to some divine crybaby, and its demands.

I like the idea of a list of questions that Bucky Ball would ask when presented with an argument for the existence of god(s), so here is a checklist of questions that I am interested in asking all of you:

1. What would it take to convince you there was a god(s)?
2. When presented with evidence that you found credible, would you worship that god(s)?
3. If yes to question 2, why?
4. If no to question 2, why?

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19-08-2012, 11:45 AM
RE: "What would it take?"
So it's a two-part question:
What would it take to believe?
If it were true, would we worship?

I have always been really crap at reading body language. School friends used to nudge me with a "she really fancies you" kinda comment. I developed a saying: I wouldn't know if a girl liked me unless she stuck her tongue down my throat and her hand down my pants.

Of course, even if she did that, it wouldn't necessarily follow that I would want a relationship with her.

Same with a god.

She can try to seduce me but doesn't mean that I'm gonna fancy her.

Having said that, a hand-job from Aphrodite might be such a dopamine/serotonin high that I would devote the rest of my life persuading others to get one too.

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19-08-2012, 11:48 AM
RE: "What would it take?"
(19-08-2012 11:36 AM)Near Wrote:  1. What would it take to convince you there was a god(s)?
2. When presented with evidence that you found credible, would you worship that god(s)?
3. If yes to question 2, why?
4. If no to question 2, why?

1. Depends upon what you mean by the term "god". Gods have been invented for all sorts of reasons. The Romans had a god of locks, that you could pray to in the hope that your lock would not succumb to a thief's skills. Or a god of the hearth, that would keep the embers hot enough to keep you warm through the winter nights.

If you mean a creator god, I'd have to have an explanation as to how an uncreated entity can exist. If the universe needs a creator, then so does that creator. I can't imagine any stepping-stone big enough to allow me to cross that stream of thought.

2. Why would such a thing need to be worshipped? To what point? To what ends?

Here's something more tangible, that does exist and, without it, we wouldn't: the sun. Without the sun, our planet would be in spacial free-fall. We'd be in constant night, with no days. No seasons. No plants. No animals. No us. Everything we see hear and do depends upon the sun. It is everything to us. Do you feel the need to worship it? I certainly don't. It's there, it does its job... and I'm grateful that it does. But I'm not going to worship it.
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19-08-2012, 11:51 AM
RE: "What would it take?"
(19-08-2012 11:45 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I have always been really crap at reading body language. School friends used to nudge me with a "she really fancies you" kinda comment. I developed a saying: I wouldn't know if a girl liked me unless she stuck her tongue down my throat and her hand down my pants.

I am excellent at reading body-language. Stick me in a room and I'll see who's doing what to who... and who wants to do what to who. From the subtlest of things that most people seem to miss. I am, in that respect, a bit of a superhero.

Unless it involves me. And then, like you, I am completely clueless. Which, as superhero flaws go... is fucking annoying. Dodgy
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19-08-2012, 11:54 AM
RE: "What would it take?"
(19-08-2012 11:36 AM)Near Wrote:  I like the idea of a list of questions that Bucky Ball would ask when presented with an argument for the existence of god(s), so here is a checklist of questions that I am interested in asking all of you:

1. What would it take to convince you there was a god(s)?
2. When presented with evidence that you found credible, would you worship that god(s)?
3. If yes to question 2, why?
4. If no to question 2, why?
1. An overwhelming amount of scientific evidence that has been peer reviewed over and over again.
2. No
3. -
4. I wouldn't worship any god unless I was threatened with eternal torture in case I do not praise him or rewarded with, for example, immortality in case I did. Either way, I wouldn't do it because I think the god is worthy of worship, but because of the consequences of my decision.

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19-08-2012, 12:00 PM
RE: "What would it take?"
(18-08-2012 09:46 PM)Near Wrote:  But here is where I differ from any of the answers that I have heard from any atheists whom I have heard speak on this issue:

Even if you could convince me that a god existed, that DOESN'T mean that I would worship that god, and in fact, every god that I have heard of/read about sounds to me to be quite immoral, and not worthy of worship. So while i could possibly be convinced that a god existed, in all likelihood I would never worship that god (or gods if it came down to it).

Perhaps this is the way that most people feel, and it's just not spoken, but I was curious to see if anyone else has thought the same sort of thing. It just seems to me that a lot of people who don't believe in a god say that they wish they could believe in a god, but that they don't think there's any evidence. That's all well and good, but it kind of pisses me off that it seems like people are saying that they would automatically follow a god if they were convinced of its existence, regardless of the supposed attributes of the god(s).

Am I just getting the wrong end of the stick? I am curious to hear your opinions.

Well... differ no longer my friend. A god is not only unnecessary, it is irrelevant.

Convince away, but even if some entity, audible, and/or visual force turned up and gave everyone the notion to worship it, I'd question why it would be necessary to do so. A god would not need me or anyone to worship it; it would just be. God -any god- would require nothing.

I can only surmise this to be the reason one has not turned up... that is if there is a god. If there is a god in one's life, certainly one would be obliged to shut the hell up about it - behave as one feels, but they're on their own.

If there is a god, I am perhaps giving it a greater amount of respect than any Theist, by not requiring it. I demand nothing of any god for survival. If there is a god, made up or not, any respect or regard would be mutual.

If God, then irrelevant

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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