"What would it take?"
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19-08-2012, 01:17 PM
RE: "What would it take?"
A god would be the most autistic child ever. So sensitive to every sensation known to man that it would need to shut out the world just to survive from going insane.
Hearing everything, seeing everything, the endless horrid stench of every world, every chemical. Humans have a huge filter on the world and can selectively ignore most everything.
A god, who by definition, doesn't seem to have any filters, just some infinite cup constantly being filled with sensations.
How could you even think ? That to me would be torture.

If a god existed, I would make him human to help preserve his sanity.

Here's the thing, when I say if a god existed, I'm also implying that if such a thing could happen, then that would mean that I would no longer be human.
I wouldn't be living in this universe. It would be some other realm where magic can happen and in that place, I would be king of the sand castle.
Two minds stand with equal footing in the realm of the imaginary, in the realm of magic. God is nothing more than a mind with power.
I too would be a mind with power. I would be a mind with creativity and if I'm facing the god that some believe made this universe, oh ya, I win hands down.
I could do a much better job than what we all see here.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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19-08-2012, 01:18 PM
RE: "What would it take?"
What I should have said in a much shorter way "If your imaginary friend begins to exist, then my imaginary self begins to exist as well"

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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19-08-2012, 01:18 PM
RE: "What would it take?"
Erxomai Wrote:I find the bold answers saying, "I would never worship such a god" as comically melodramatic. So you're saying if an ultimate omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent being that has the power to make you, unmake you, torture you or reward you in the face of overwhelming provable evidence, that you would reject such a god. It's the old, "All my friends are in Hell" glibness. You're not going to get to experience your friends in this hypothetical Hell. You're going to be eternally on fire suffering unimaginably for eternity because you're too proud to accept that there is a being responsible for your destiny? Yeah. Tell me that again when said hypothetical deity presents you with the hypothetical reality.

As further clarification, I was raised in Evangelical Christianity, so I am mainly discussing the christian god, and the claims about it.

Who was it that said something along the lines of "After the first 10,000 years eternal bliss starts to get a bit monotonous." It would be the same thing for eternal torture wouldn't it? Unless the god was somehow able to continuously ramp up the bliss or torture ad infinitum, it would all get to be pretty dull, pretty quickly.

It also would depend on the claims made about the god(s), which would really flavour my response to such evidence. If the claims were benign, then I might be more likely to consider said god, but when it comes right down to it, I don't want to live forever. Sure, I would probably enjoy living for hundreds of years, or even thousands of years, perhaps even millions of years, but after such a long time, I think it would all get a bit boring and I would stop enjoying it. If I had thousands of years to live, I would love to master every language on earth, and every instrument on earth, and try every kind of food, but sooner or later, the newness starts to wear off, and you just become bored. I already get really bored, and I know how many different things there are to do in the world, that I have never done. Imagine if you had tried everything that there was to try, or at least everything that was interesting to you, after that, there would be nothing left. If a god or gods were to somehow grant me eternal life, and make it so that I was never bored, then that would no longer be me, because I do get bored. The same with how people speak of the christian god, and heaven and say that there are no tears in heaven, or whatever other bullshit they spout to each other. I am a human, and I do cry on occasion, and I do get angry, and a whole range of other emotions. I would probably fucking hate being happy all of the time, the range of emotions that I am able to experience are part of what makes life worth living, and any heaven that would take those things away from me, is not worth going to in my opinion. Even at the risk of eternal torture, because, apparently you can still be sad, and in pain, and probably angry in some sort of hell, whereas in heaven you are just eternally blissful. I would rather experience three shitty emotions or feelings all of the time, instead of one great one.

Kim Wrote:Convince away, but even if some entity, audible, and/or visual force turned up and gave everyone the notion to worship it, I'd question why it would be necessary to do so. A god would not need me or anyone to worship it; it would just be. God -any god- would require nothing.

That really makes a lot of sense to me, and I will definitely be using this in the future. Smile

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19-08-2012, 01:47 PM (This post was last modified: 19-08-2012 04:04 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: "What would it take?"
Kim Wrote:Convince away, but even if some entity, audible, and/or visual force turned up and gave everyone the notion to worship it, I'd question why it would be necessary to do so. A god would not need me or anyone to worship it; it would just be. God -any god- would require nothing.

That really makes a lot of sense to me, and I will definitely be using this in the future. Smile

That's what I was trying to say. Any god that requires anything, least of all "worship", ain't worth the name.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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19-08-2012, 02:41 PM
RE: "What would it take?"
(18-08-2012 09:46 PM)Near Wrote:  I am an atheist, so this is not a thread to try to convince anyone of anything, but merely to put out my take on the question; "What would it take to convince you there was a god?"

I'm still waiting to be convinced I am before I move on to god. Descartes failed miserably. Thankfully, neuroscience is now working on the problem so at least there's hope.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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19-08-2012, 03:40 PM
RE: "What would it take?"
(19-08-2012 12:35 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  I find the bold answers saying, "I would never worship such a god" as comically melodramatic. So you're saying if an ultimate omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent being that has the power to make you, unmake you, torture you or reward you in the face of overwhelming provable evidence, that you would reject such a god. It's the old, "All my friends are in Hell" glibness. You're not going to get to experience your friends in this hypothetical Hell. You're going to be eternally on fire suffering unimaginably for eternity because you're too proud to accept that there is a being responsible for your destiny? Yeah. Tell me that again when said hypothetical deity presents you with the hypothetical reality. Drinking Beverage

If he makes me, unmakes me, whatever... am I still me? As I am at this present moment I would not worship such a God. Unless he offered threat. And then it wouldn't be genuine "you're the most fucken A deity I've ever met" worship, it'd be based off fear. If he's gonna reach into my brain and make me into a different person then yes, that other person might worship no problem.
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19-08-2012, 03:50 PM
RE: "What would it take?"
(19-08-2012 01:08 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  Saying, "We don't have a soul" is equal to saying "There is no God," unless there's an argument I'm unaware of. I don't believe in either.

The concept of what a god is (or isn't) is such a nebulous one, that it is near impossible to give a clear answer, or offer proof. With a soul, however, we have clear evidence that such a thing does not need to exist. We understand the mechanics of the brain so much better than our ancient ancestors ever could... some of whom thought that the mind was in the heart, not the brain.

That we have no soul is such a no-brainer. (pause for applause)

But regardless of that, it is possible to invoke the concept of a god without necessarily invoking the existence of a soul. They are not mutually-inclusive.
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19-08-2012, 04:00 PM
RE: "What would it take?"
(19-08-2012 03:50 PM)Red Celt Wrote:  
(19-08-2012 01:08 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  Saying, "We don't have a soul" is equal to saying "There is no God," unless there's an argument I'm unaware of. I don't believe in either.

The concept of what a god is (or isn't) is such a nebulous one, that it is near impossible to give a clear answer, or offer proof. With a soul, however, we have clear evidence that such a thing does not need to exist. We understand the mechanics of the brain so much better than our ancient ancestors ever could... some of whom thought that the mind was in the heart, not the brain.

That we have no soul is such a no-brainer. (pause for applause)

But regardless of that, it is possible to invoke the concept of a god without necessarily invoking the existence of a soul. They are not mutually-inclusive.

I see what you're saying. But I think you're staying on the rational side of the "what if?" question, and I'm plunging right into the side that says what if we were somehow proven wrong about our rational assumptions. It's just in the hypothetical situation of what would it take to believe in a god, in my eyes if you're talking anything less than an omnipotent being, somehow irrationally outside of our space-time, then you're just talking about some sort of higher evolved alien creature, and then sure, no need for a soul. But if we're talking about a creator existing outside the universe and desiring to give eternal life to it's people, then you also have to add in an hypothetical soul or some sort of enduring personhood. Otherwise what's the point of accepting that deity's offer of eternal life if it all ends here anyway?

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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19-08-2012, 04:16 PM
RE: "What would it take?"
(19-08-2012 04:00 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  But if we're talking about a creator existing outside the universe and desiring to give eternal life to it's people, then you also have to add in an hypothetical soul or some sort of enduring personhood. Otherwise what's the point of accepting that deity's offer of eternal life if it all ends here anyway?

Well, exactly. Smile

That's a significant part of my theistic de-conversion program. If I had a need to use such a thing. Not only is the whole creator-god concept ridiculous, even if one existed, the non-existence of a soul renders it pointless, too.

If I was stuck in a lift with any (sane and rational) theist on the planet, I could de-convert them if given enough time. I'm a hardcore atheist who laughs when people call Dawkins a Rottweiler. That pussy was once a theist.

As for the OP's question, I'm afraid that I just can't manage a wilful suspension of disbelief long enough to cater for the existence of a soul and a god. I have more-than-zero knowledge of neurobiology.



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19-08-2012, 11:14 PM
RE: "What would it take?"
I suspend my disbelief when watching a play at the theater and I imagine that Christians do the same thing when they go to church theater on sundays.

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